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Struggling with Behavioural Questions in Interviews?
They are the most common and also the toughest for many candidates.
This free E-book shows you how to answer them with confidence.
They are the most common and also the toughest for many candidates.
This free E-book shows you how to answer them with confidence.
Career Reshaped Episode 14: HARD CHOICES: Money? or Dream Career?
Ever feel like your career doesn’t follow the “normal” path—but somehow it’s leading you somewhere more honest?
You’re in good company.
In this episode of Career Reshaped, Natasha and Pauline talk with Lachlan—technology executive, leadership coach, and co-founder of Blackmill—about what it really looks like to reshape your career more than once.
Lachlan started out in the Australian Army, thinking it would be the right way to fund his education and build a stable future. But things didn’t go as planned. After five years, he found himself back at home, starting over. That turning point didn’t just shift his career—it reshaped how he thought about work, leadership, and success.
In this candid conversation, Lachlan shares the lessons learned from years spent building and leading engineering teams across time zones and cultures. He talks about the difference between managing tasks and leading people, and why so many teams struggle not because of lack of skill, but because of missing safety and trust.
They also dig into the often-unspoken pressure to move “up” in your career—even when it’s not the right fit—and the harm that happens when leadership becomes a default, not a choice. Lachlan offers a fresh perspective on what good leadership really looks like, and how being clear about your values can change the way you show up at work.
If you’re a professional navigating growth, change, or uncertainty in your role, this episode is a powerful reminder that the best careers aren’t always the most polished—they’re the ones built with intention.
🎧 Tune in for a grounded, honest look at career growth, leadership that works, and the freedom to start over—on your own terms.
Discussion Overview
Sometimes progress looks like starting over. Whether it's shifting careers or stepping back to regroup, real growth begins with accepting the present and building from it. It's okay if the path isn't linear—what matters is moving forward with clarity and self-awareness.
When traditional paths don’t work out, carving your own way becomes essential. Learning new skills, seeking out new environments, or simply being willing to try again can reignite a career and open doors that weren’t initially visible.
Letting go of the need to perform or fit into a mold allows you to find roles and environments that align with who you are. It's about learning from past misalignments and being honest with yourself about what energizes you—and what doesn't.
Work shouldn’t consume all your energy. Building a sustainable career means creating space for joy, rest, and life outside of work. It’s about identifying what fills your cup and giving yourself permission to enjoy it.
Meaningful relationships often shape the most pivotal career moves. Whether through mentors, peers, or supportive teams, connections offer guidance, opportunity, and belonging. They remind us we’re not navigating alone.
Every chapter—successful or not—teaches something. Skills learned in one field can be surprisingly transferable in another. Even “wrong turns” shape your resilience, values, and self-understanding.
Be kind to yourself. You don’t have to have it all figured out. Failure doesn’t define you, and there’s no one path to success. Trust your instincts, and know that starting over isn’t failure—it’s growth.
Podcast Transcript:
| Time | Transcript |
|---|---|
| 00:00 | hi and welcome to another episode of Career Reshaped i'm Natasha and I'm |
| 00:04 | Pauling and today we have Lachlan with us lachlan is a technology executive |
| 00:09 | with more than 20 years of experience as a leader and front-end software engineer |
| 00:13 | working and leading teams and orgs for companies such as Forage Microsoft |
| 00:18 | Atlassian Big Pond TV News Digital Media and others throughout his career Lachlan |
| 00:24 | has led teams across multiple countries and time zones as a certified |
| 00:28 | organizational coach and co-founder of Blackmill he advises executives and |
| 00:32 | technology leaders how to scale and start shipping again we're excited to |
| 00:36 | have Lachlan with with us today and to learn more about his story and the |
| 00:40 | advice he can share hey it's Natasha and I'm Pauline we're so pumped to bring you |
| 00:46 | even bigger and better stuff this season 2 of Career Reshape we've got new guests |
| 00:52 | free master classes and all the good vibes you'll only find here so don't |
| 00:56 | forget to hit subscribe follow us on Spotify at Careershaped and check us out |
| 01:02 | on Instagram at my.career.angels hi Lachlan welcome |
| 01:08 | hi how are you good thanks for joining us today so your career history sounds |
| 01:15 | very exciting that we've just spoken about uh so if you could start with how |
| 01:21 | did you end up where you are i'm sure it's a bit of a story with challenges |
| 01:25 | and ups and downs we'd love to know more this is either my second or maybe my |
| 01:29 | third careerish um so out of school I went to |
| 01:34 | the Australian Defense Force Academy and spent five years in the army the |
| 01:38 | Australian Army um and that didn't work out for me in super great ways and I |
| 01:45 | ended up like moving back home to live with my parents again five years later |
| 01:49 | and started all over again after that can I ask what made you decide the army |
| 01:56 | cuz that's quite a bold choice to be |
| 02:03 | honing going on uh my family was very focused on um |
| 02:12 | focus is probably the wrong term the amount of money we had was a thing and |
| 02:15 | we talked about it a lot and I knew university was |
| 02:18 | expensive but I also knew my parents really wanted me to go to university and |
| 02:23 | then you know then these recruiters show up at school talking about how you know |
| 02:28 | the government will pay for my university if I just join the army and |
| 02:32 | that seemed like a really good option um and then I I got the grades to |
| 02:38 | qualify for that and uh so so I took it and yeah went to |
| 02:45 | went to the defense academy in CRA um and |
| 02:50 | uh I I don't think that I was really ready for university um I had |
| 03:00 | um this is like a super privileged ridiculous thing to say but I was one of |
| 03:04 | the like smart kid does really well at school so therefore never really learned |
| 03:08 | how to do the work oh and I wish I had that problem |
| 03:13 | no um no but I understand i understand what you're saying and and so university |
| 03:18 | was a bit of like a wakeup call as was the military like learning to to deal |
| 03:22 | with all of that at once was a lot and there are times that I did not manage |
| 03:27 | well I think that's it's fair because you went into the real world and the |
| 03:34 | unfortunately a high school doesn't teach you about the real world i mean |
| 03:39 | it's great you learn chemistry and algebra and whatnot but it's not the |
| 03:43 | real world and you're not told what reality is how to look after yourself |
| 03:49 | you know how to become an adult and that's a |
| 03:55 | challenge so you're now put into an environment that is probably a lot more |
| 03:59 | challenging than what most people have because still the transition between |
| 04:02 | high school university most people still living at home with their parents they |
| 04:07 | don't have that strict rigid um environment as what the military would |
| 04:13 | have put on you on top of that education yeah i mean I had to |
| 04:18 | wear my army uniform to university classes you know like you're you're uh |
| 04:24 | they're not two separate they were a combined experience at the Defense Force |
| 04:27 | Academy and so it was uh as you say like it was a lot of of um |
| 04:34 | extra discipline and load and structure just added all at once for sure yeah a |
| 04:40 | lot of different realities and what were you studying uh bachelor of arts double |
| 04:45 | major Southeast Asian politics and history which is really useful in my |
| 04:50 | current career as a technologist uh no it's not uh no no not at all um I would |
| 04:57 | have believed you that's why I had to point out that that |
| 05:00 | was that was uh Yeah that was ingest yeah that was that was what I did um and |
| 05:05 | that was cool but uh some of the military |
| 05:10 | stuff didn't work out for me in a bunch of ways and um they ended up uh telling |
| 05:17 | me that they wanted me to leave training so so that was the end of that okay uh |
| 05:22 | yeah maybe a good thing cuz what was the next step yeah well I mean so that was |
| 05:26 | that was a actually a long process in a number of ways because I obviously was |
| 05:29 | invested and wanted to continue right and so can I ask was that for you or was |
| 05:34 | that for your parents that's a good question i mean the wanting to get a |
| 05:38 | degree thing was for my parents i didn't care u might be part of the problem |
| 05:47 | um and and then obviously there was an element of like well I've been through |
| 05:52 | these things over years with all of these people my classmates we and like |
| 05:57 | not just university stuff but like going out in the bush and doing like military |
| 06:01 | exercises together and doing all these other things together like at the base |
| 06:05 | all this sort of stuff like there was a real I mean you know military |
| 06:09 | experiences are famous for their bonding like effects and and that was |
| 06:15 | absolutely part of it right I was really bored And then I was like I have to you |
| 06:19 | know do this i have to demonstrate that I can do this and I want to be part of |
| 06:22 | this with the people that I've been going through this with um so I was |
| 06:27 | really fighting to stay and be part of it and and you know go and get my um uh |
| 06:35 | get out get out in the real army and be an officer you know uh and eventually I |
| 06:41 | had to learn to accept that that wasn't going to happen |
| 06:45 | and um and then yeah like bureaucratic stuff occurred and we got all of the |
| 06:53 | paperwork done and then I was released and um moved back to Berat to live with |
| 06:59 | my parents until I worked out what I was doing next when that happens because |
| 07:02 | that does happen to a lot of people that we speak to where they're they're |
| 07:06 | heading down one way and they think this is my career this is what I'm going to |
| 07:09 | make out of it and then something happens that sometimes it's out of their |
| 07:13 | control and they can't continue so how did that make you feel and what how did |
| 07:20 | you get yourself out of it like what tools did you use to be able to move |
| 07:24 | forward like obviously initially I was gutted right like in a way it's like |
| 07:28 | this is my dream this is the thing I've been working on and even if elements of |
| 07:33 | why that had become my dream were because of other people my family my |
| 07:37 | whatever right you know I worked on it for years and so the failure of that was |
| 07:43 | you know painful but um I was also part of that process of |
| 07:50 | leaving the army because it took a while helped me come to terms with it and |
| 07:54 | helped me be like well what am I doing next and I mean I went home because I |
| 07:58 | had nowhere else to like I didn't have any you know I was like I'm not going to |
| 08:00 | have any income i'm not going to have any you know so I went back and said to |
| 08:04 | my old room in my parents house but I hadn't lived for 5 years and um and then |
| 08:10 | I was like I need to get a job you know and so I just you know went on the doll |
| 08:16 | and I went to all of the interviews that they suggested and I went and did the |
| 08:19 | training courses and the all the things um I went I found all the recruitment |
| 08:25 | agency job futures or I don't know if that's still a thing these days it's |
| 08:28 | called that then I think all these places and |
| 08:33 | um I don't know I got a job as a town hallkeeper in the Berat town hall it's |
| 08:39 | an odd job it's kind of um uh you're both uh security for public |
| 08:45 | events and bartender for like uh the you know the celebratory events in the hall |
| 08:53 | and tour guide for tourists who want to like check out this historic building in |
| 08:58 | the middle of Bellerat where the courtroom used to be yeah my desk was |
| 09:03 | directly underneath the the original Eureka flag find a job find some money |
| 09:08 | be able to like pay to move out of my parents house um love my parents but you |
| 09:13 | know I was 21 22 i was like I want to not live here and then found a job um as |
| 09:20 | a programmer at a school like the my old computer teacher |
| 09:25 | was like you know um he just ran into me somewhere and he's like you know how to |
| 09:30 | write this software don't you and I'm like no he's like you need a job right |
| 09:33 | and I'm like yes he's like "I have a book." I'm like "It'll teach me the |
| 09:39 | programming language." He's like "It's what it's supposed to do." I'm like "All |
| 09:41 | right give me two weeks." And I just took the book away |
| 09:45 | for two weeks and I worked my way through all the exercises in the book |
| 09:47 | and I did all of the things it said and and I went back to him two weeks later |
| 09:51 | and said "Okay what do you want to build?" And he said "This thing." I said |
| 09:54 | I don't know uh that sounds really hard give me two |
| 09:58 | weeks." Two weeks later I went back and went "Okay here's the start of what I |
| 10:02 | have what do you think?" And he's like "All right cool let's do this." and he |
| 10:05 | started paying me money to build this thing and that was like my first startup |
| 10:08 | didn't even know the word startup then so your brain just kind of it made sense |
| 10:13 | to you yeah i mean like I said I was a nerdy kid like my dad was the computer |
| 10:18 | science teacher at school oh in the blood you know we'd had a computer at |
| 10:21 | home since I was little and I used to do stuff on the internet but I'd never like |
| 10:29 | written obviously I'd never written professional software and I didn't like |
| 10:32 | have a hobby of making websites like when I was in the army I didn't have the |
| 10:35 | internet for years so it was new but it was familiar i guess do a whole degree |
| 10:42 | on this and you're like I read one book in two weeks here we go |
| 10:47 | that's I mean that could easily have not worked out it was luck right you took |
| 10:52 | the chance and yeah I was just like I said I was just taking I was like "Well |
| 10:56 | what else can I do let me try this thing let me try this thing." And maybe that |
| 10:59 | wouldn't work i'm assuming you must have enjoyed it i did i liked it a lot like I |
| 11:03 | mean if I hadn't liked it I would have got to the end of the two weeks and I |
| 11:06 | wouldn't have done very much you know but because I did like it and then be |
| 11:10 | you know wanting to be able to move into my own place again was definitely a |
| 11:14 | forcing function to make me look be like sit down for the first however many |
| 11:18 | hours and pay attention to the book right |
| 11:21 | but but if I hadn't liked it that wouldn't have stuck and I would have it |
| 11:26 | wouldn't have been enough it's not a huge motivator to move you didn't want |
| 11:29 | to move out that badly something that Yeah because I was in a space where I |
| 11:34 | was like I've just tried to do this one thing for 5 years and it didn't work so |
| 11:38 | like I don't want to do that again right i want to make sure the next thing is |
| 11:41 | something I actually really do care about you know I did like I was like |
| 11:45 | it's okay to be doing these jobs that are paying bringing some money but until |
| 11:49 | I find a thing like I need to find a thing I genuinely want to do |
| 11:54 | because I don't want to invest that time and have and have that failure again i |
| 11:58 | want to make sure this is a thing that I can make work that's absolutely right |
| 12:01 | and that's exactly what we say often to the people we speak to that you need to |
| 12:05 | love it if if you're waking up and you're dreading going to work or |
| 12:11 | whatever tasks you have to do it's not going to last or it will last but your |
| 12:16 | mental health will really suffer yeah I completely agree you really need to |
| 12:21 | enjoy what you're doing you need to be happy to wake up to go to work to talk |
| 12:25 | to your colleagues to do the tasks that you have to do every day if it's not |
| 12:29 | there then it's time to think of something else and the fact that you |
| 12:33 | gave yourself the chance to explore what it is that you liked doing and you okay |
| 12:40 | to have a job like I almost would call that job as a filler job a |
| 12:45 | placeholder you had the income coming in but you didn't stop to try to find |
| 12:50 | yourself which a lot of people unfortunately they do they're like "Well |
| 12:53 | I know this this is easy it's um comfortable i understand it i don't have |
| 12:59 | to really rock any boats and then I'm staying then before they know it 20 30 |
| 13:05 | years went by and they're just going with the flow of things without really |
| 13:12 | feeling fulfillment or purpose of what they're |
| 13:16 | actually doing yeah I mean that makes sense |
| 13:19 | like I had you know I had other odd jobs and stuff too right like I I was helping |
| 13:25 | an electrician cable like run like fiber optic cables through the roofs of |
| 13:29 | institutions and stuff like I had all kinds of weird little jobs for like |
| 13:34 | whatever it was a year and a half two years but I really wanted to |
| 13:39 | find something deeper to do yeah |
| 13:45 | yeah and so after whatever it was maybe 18 months of programming for my old |
| 13:51 | computer teacher um |
| 13:55 | uh I you know I paid for myself to go to a a conference about web standards which |
| 14:02 | was the cool thing to me at the time and all about how you make websites and |
| 14:06 | stuff and you know took myself to Sydney from Berat and went to this conference |
| 14:13 | and met people and like just introduced myself to the conference organizers they |
| 14:18 | introduced me to other people and um two weeks afterwards one of them emailed me |
| 14:23 | and asked me if I wanted a job and um he didn't actually no he |
| 14:29 | didn't ask me immediately he asked me if I would review a talk he was giving he |
| 14:33 | knew that I knew the field in which he was he was like can you like fact check |
| 14:38 | this for me and I did and I wrote him back like a long email with pointing out |
| 14:41 | a bunch of different things and offering him some edits and stuff and um and two |
| 14:46 | weeks after that he He uh everything's two weeks um two weeks after that he |
| 14:50 | sent me he was like do you want a job do you want to like move to Melbourne and |
| 14:53 | come and work with us um and I was like yes I do question um from this because |
| 15:01 | doing something like that you know getting yourself to this confidence |
| 15:04 | conferences and introducing yourself needs you need confidence to be able to |
| 15:10 | do that is is that something that came naturally to you and if not how would |
| 15:15 | you tell people to have that boost to just do it before we get into the |
| 15:19 | nitty-gritty of this topic we just wanted to check in and say that if you |
| 15:23 | believe that you need some assistance and that we could help you reach out to |
| 15:27 | us today check out our website join our newsletter we'd love to be in touch we |
| 15:31 | wanted to quickly mention that subscribing to the podcast is the best |
| 15:35 | way to support the show and ensure you never miss an episode it's super easy |
| 15:42 | just click the subscribe button whenever you're listening thanks for tuning in i |
| 15:47 | think most people believe I come across as a really confident person like I like |
| 15:52 | talking to people i can conversations i find that um actually I find it really |
| 15:58 | difficult but I have gotten good at it to some degree find out how much the |
| 16:04 | ratio of me talking on this podcast works out but um I |
| 16:09 | uh I do find that really difficult right like I'm actually I'm an anxious |
| 16:14 | depressive i used to be medicated for it i used to have like mad panic attacks |
| 16:20 | and I did for years and years all through all of this stuff right and um I= |
| 16:26 | had depression i was on anti-depressants like this is a major part of my life and |
| 16:32 | so presenting myself confidently is actually really difficult |
| 16:36 | but um in a way I was like well why am I here if I'm not like why did I come to |
| 16:43 | this thing if I'm not going to meet people like I could have just gone and |
| 16:47 | read a blog post about this material if I wasn't going to talk to anybody at the |
| 16:51 | conference you know and these days it's like all of the all of the talks are all |
| 16:55 | online anyway if you're going to make yourself go to a place where the |
| 16:58 | community is like I just felt I had to make myself talk to people and and |
| 17:04 | introduce myself and get to know people and it was really challenging |
| 17:10 | um but turns out people are really nice so like you meet some people and then |
| 17:15 | it's fine i always say that look I actually I can relate to you um so thank |
| 17:20 | you one for being so open and honest and you know I guess saying that personal |
| 17:27 | side but I I do relate um a lot of people think that I'm naturally an |
| 17:34 | extrovert um but what they don't know is is that I'm actually naturally very shy |
| 17:40 | um if Natasha can remember I wouldn't even be able to order food um from a |
| 17:45 | waiter she had to do it for me and she's four years younger and so this little |
| 17:51 | girl is ordering food for her like teenage sister u do you remember Natasha |
| 17:57 | honestly no no I do because you're always the brave one so and that's |
| 18:03 | that's not the case right um it was not until I actually started working my |
| 18:07 | first job was in a call center and the first couple of phone calls that I did I |
| 18:11 | was um abused like you know cuz I had to collect debt collecting so people were |
| 18:17 | not happy about that those uh phone calls and I would be crying i s really |
| 18:22 | personal it had nothing to do with me like I was just doing my job um but that |
| 18:27 | actually that experience helped me to be more out there and even now to |
| 18:33 | this day like I'll enter a room and I'm really nervous but it's one of those a |
| 18:38 | mask that you put on like almost like a fake it till you make it so I force |
| 18:43 | myself to go out there and to connect with people and I like to call like it's |
| 18:48 | a hat a hat that you put on you put on the professional hat you put on the |
| 18:54 | extroverted I'm a go-getter this is what I want so how am I going to get what I |
| 18:59 | want i'm going to have to put myself out there and do it and I know it sounds so |
| 19:03 | easy just go out there and do it you have to pull on your confidence coat and |
| 19:08 | you're good yeah yeah just you force yourself to do it and the thing is |
| 19:12 | you're so right because a lot of people most people are good people and they |
| 19:15 | genuinely want to help and they're open to connect and help so it's very rare |
| 19:21 | that I've I don't even recall coming across someone who was not willing to at |
| 19:26 | least have a conversation yeah I agree like it is super challenging and you get |
| 19:31 | in your head about and you feel really bad about like oh I'm I can't you know |
| 19:36 | open up like this or I can't be vulnerable or you know like it's easy |
| 19:39 | for that guy to be on the podcast talking about you know just going up to |
| 19:43 | people but it it was you know genuinely difficult as you say like I put on like |
| 19:50 | a front to make it happen right and that was really useful to me for |
| 19:55 | years but as I get older and older like I'm I I'm trying to remove it now right |
| 20:02 | like I want to It's not that I was inauthentic |
| 20:07 | before right like but it was performative right like I was performing |
| 20:12 | a role of a confident person you know and and I was still me and I was still |
| 20:18 | believed the things that I believe and and cared about the things that I care |
| 20:20 | about but I was like just performing like the version of PE me that I thought |
| 20:25 | would work well with people or something right |
| 20:28 | and I mean it's you know I'm wearing a t-shirt that says sandwiches like |
| 20:35 | I I you know I love this t-shirt it's it's it's new um but like normally I'd |
| 20:40 | be like "Oh I have to wear a shirt i don't know if we're gonna be on video." |
| 20:43 | I'll make sure that I'm like and I'm like "Yeah but I'm wearing the |
| 20:47 | sandwiches shirt today." And that's cool that's fine like I have um so I'm |
| 20:52 | starting to pull back some of the layers of that mask and like try not to use it |
| 20:55 | as much and but it that's a that's a thing that I I guess I can afford now um |
| 21:01 | in my career because I'm further along but that's also comes with age |
| 21:07 | like with the older we get the less that we feel that we need to be someone or |
| 21:14 | something and that we take off those rosecolor glasses and we start seeing |
| 21:19 | ourselves and the people around for who they are and if you don't like me for me |
| 21:24 | like my clothes don't define who I am or my knowledge or you know if I'm bubbly |
| 21:31 | doesn't mean that I'm not capable of still performing a TED talk and and on a |
| 21:36 | serious topic so I think that we start to realize that it's okay to be |
| 21:40 | ourselves and if someone doesn't like it that's okay cuz you don't like everyone |
| 21:44 | anyway in saying that though just to put a little caveat on that um we do |
| 21:49 | say just in case someone's listening and they're heading in for an interview do |
| 21:53 | still dress professionally you Yeah i mean you know but like I guess |
| 21:59 | I'm saying that like my calibration for that is different now like I would have |
| 22:04 | been like I need to be wearing like a business shirt for this call like |
| 22:10 | because I need to you know um and uh like I used to dress in a very way |
| 22:17 | that I mean it didn't make me feel comfortable but I thought it was what |
| 22:20 | people wanted or what was appropriate or you know and so I was less confident and |
| 22:25 | less comfortable because I didn't like what I was wearing or how I was dressing |
| 22:28 | or you know and so there's like you got to find that balance of like how do |
| 22:33 | present myself as a put together person who knows what they're doing who can you |
| 22:38 | know who'd be great to work with um with like this front that you're presenting |
| 22:45 | to to show people that and try and actually balance the two of them so that |
| 22:50 | they're they're not too far apart maybe your authentic professional self yeah |
| 22:55 | that's a good way to put it then yeah still you cuz we all have |
| 23:00 | different versions of ourselves there's the at home version there's the corporal |
| 23:06 | version there's the friend version there's the stranger on the street |
| 23:09 | someone stops you on the street hey do you have a second to do a survey there's |
| 23:13 | another version of you there you suddenly put a front up and you'll be |
| 23:16 | you know there's different versions of us but it's still |
| 23:20 | us right so it's still how we would react to a situation or behave but once |
| 23:26 | you start thinking that you are be you would |
| 23:31 | how do I say like what you said before what I think that they want to |
| 23:36 | see that is where you start to lose that connection because you don't know what |
| 23:41 | who they really want to see and yourself is probably a lot better than anything |
| 23:46 | else that you can make up and I think that a lot of people |
| 23:51 | behave like that not just in the corporate world but in the personal life |
| 23:54 | too with the friendship ship or other relationships like oh I better behave in |
| 23:58 | a certain way where your authentic self is probably the one that people might |
| 24:03 | resonate with the most because it is the most powerful because it's the most |
| 24:07 | natural and organic that the most energy comes from it |
| 24:12 | but that takes time to learn to beyourself the to have the to to feel to |
| 24:19 | express some things and then realize that that doesn't go badly that that's |
| 24:24 | okay All right um you know you said before like I I um somebody asked me 10 |
| 24:31 | years ago or something to give a talk about my career um I've only just |
| 24:38 | remembered this i was like this was this is the second time I've ever done this |
| 24:40 | but the other one was 10 years ago right 12 years ago maybe and it was like a |
| 24:44 | breakfast talk at this little thing in Sydney and um I'd written this talk all |
| 24:50 | about fancy technology career and working in startups and being real good |
| 24:54 | at programming stuff and whatever and then I just read it reread it while I |
| 24:59 | was practicing the night before and I was like I hate this so much this is |
| 25:02 | like only this is not my actual |
| 25:06 | journey and I deleted like 40% of the talk and rewrote it that night and |
| 25:14 | practiced it like once before I got to the place to do the talk and and so what |
| 25:19 | I paired it with was like here's my career going like this and here's me in |
| 25:25 | my anxiety and depression going like this you know to the to the thing that |
| 25:30 | we were saying before about like if you're doing if you're making yourself |
| 25:33 | go to the job you hate then that's not you taking care of yourself because |
| 25:38 | you're not going to be invested in it you're not going to be able to do it |
| 25:40 | well or you're you're going to hurt your mental health and so my talk ended up |
| 25:45 | being about that and I was still twinning it with hey look at my career |
| 25:49 | like this and my salary went like that yay and I just damaged myself in a way |
| 25:53 | that took years to recover and at the time I was at the start of |
| 25:57 | the journey of the recovery so I didn't actually have the oh it all works out |
| 26:01 | bit that didn't exist and 50% of the people in the room |
| 26:07 | there's like 40 people there or something right like came up to me |
| 26:10 | afterwards and talked about their own struggles with mental health their own |
| 26:13 | issues with depression anxiety imposter syndrome all of this stuff right and the |
| 26:18 | rest of them messaged me on Twitter afterwards |
| 26:23 | so like the whole room right so there was no negative response to this there |
| 26:28 | was no backlash there was no oh you're obviously weak or you suck or there's |
| 26:32 | something wrong with you from any of that it was only positive for me and so |
| 26:37 | ever since then I've been like I should share that more i should tell people |
| 26:41 | that truth |
| 26:44 | because like it's valuable for people to hear somebody that they look at and go |
| 26:49 | that guy's achieving to say it hasn't been easy and I think a lot of people |
| 26:54 | can connect and obviously as you saw 40 out of 40 there you know 100% of people |
| 26:57 | contacted you literally everybody well it's because I think also society is so |
| 27:03 | fullon and people have so many pressures and especially you know a while ago it |
| 27:09 | was really taboo to even talk about your emotions and how you feel and if you |
| 27:12 | were depressed and now it is a lot more out there that you know the are you okay |
| 27:16 | movement and and all of that but even that just having it one day or one month |
| 27:23 | a year is not enough to continue talking about and having a safe space where |
| 27:27 | people know it's okay to share your truth just like you said and connect to |
| 27:32 | others in that way i I think that's really powerful and for the individual |
| 27:37 | person can really improve their well-being just by |
| 27:42 | knowing that there are so many other people out there that are going through |
| 27:45 | the same thing and like you said you know you're aligning it with your career |
| 27:49 | as well you know your career is going there but you were going there but how |
| 27:52 | to bring yourself back up there I think is really great and really motivational |
| 27:56 | to a lot of people i don't know if I've gotten it right yet |
| 28:00 | you know working on it but like I don't know um it it's hard right and |
| 28:07 | uh you know being a trying to be a good person trying to be a like and achieve |
| 28:16 | at work and achieve in your like I don't know like in your relationships and your |
| 28:19 | personal life and your friends and like dealing with life you know um like I |
| 28:26 | don't think I'll ever get the balance right it goes backwards and forwards and |
| 28:30 | you just keep working on it there's an article that came out about the fact |
| 28:34 | that you will never get balance equal balance on anything that something has |
| 28:38 | to give so if you're going to invest more time on your work and family then |
| 28:44 | your health you don't have the same amount of time then to go to the gym or |
| 28:48 | work out or if you invest more time on health and family then not so much at |
| 28:53 | work and it's really hard to get that actual balance i I mean that was you |
| 29:00 | know that job that I was talking about that the guy who emailed me and asked me |
| 29:03 | to look at this thing for him and then offered me the job i took that job and |
| 29:08 | they paid me like nothing and like I was making like three grand more than I had |
| 29:13 | been making with like my other three jobs but at least it was one job right |
| 29:16 | so I don't know but um uh it was at a web agency making |
| 29:22 | websites for like state government like this is in Melbourne um websites for |
| 29:26 | state government and Nazda and like big brands right like cool like the |
| 29:31 | Department of Education and the Department of Immigration and stuff for |
| 29:34 | that stuff like that and um it was like I was working 10 hours was normal 12hour |
| 29:42 | days wasn't a big deal 16 hour days happened sometimes um one time I didn't |
| 29:47 | sleep for three days straight i went home had a shower came back immediately |
| 29:52 | like this is a you know but that was a deliberate choice on my part not |
| 29:59 | necessarily the 16 hours or whatever but like was was I don't have other |
| 30:04 | commitments right like I have just like I am trying to establish this career I |
| 30:10 | am doing this putting this effort in and I'm not going to have another life |
| 30:13 | outside of this right now but it was deliberate and I only did |
| 30:18 | it for that one job so at the end of like 14 months i |
| 30:23 | was like I'm done and I went somewhere else and I didn't work like that again |
| 30:27 | right but um I just wanted so badly to to find that thing that I did that and |
| 30:35 | I'm not advocating that you're listening to do that right but to that thing you |
| 30:40 | were saying about balance Molly like it's like I made a choice to be like I |
| 30:45 | don't have anything else going on in my life right now i didn't have a partner i |
| 30:48 | didn't like I'd just moved back to Bellerat i'd moved to Melbourne for this |
| 30:52 | job and had like I didn't know anybody in Melbourne what am I going to you know |
| 30:55 | who am I going to hang out with anyway and so I just went to the office and |
| 30:59 | worked all the time but it gave me a a whole heap of skills that I was able to |
| 31:04 | use and it felt like a fair trade-off at the time i mean sounds like a fair |
| 31:09 | trade-off to me and I think that uh where we choose to invest our time into |
| 31:16 | in that moment is then right it felt right at the time then it was right it |
| 31:20 | was right for you um yes obviously the circumstances would be different if you |
| 31:25 | were married or had a baby or something at that moment and you were still |
| 31:30 | actively choosing to work 14 16our days then I'd be like well we need to talk |
| 31:36 | there's a there's a big question you have other responsibilities here what |
| 31:39 | are you doing yeah what what's the priority but when you're in your |
| 31:44 | 20s usually that that's a really good time to invest those extra hours to |
| 31:50 | build that foundation to get the momentum going and then obviously you |
| 31:56 | can start taking those that time back but you've built yourself up you've got |
| 32:01 | those skills you got that experience to go to the next level and sometimes you |
| 32:05 | do need to put that time in and best to do it in your 20s when you have the |
| 32:12 | energy as well cuz I remember I couldn't do it in my 20ies i well I couldn't do |
| 32:17 | it now not possible i'm 46 there is no way I'm working I mean even 10our days |
| 32:22 | are pretty hard now like I get to the end of six hours and I'm like I think |
| 32:26 | I'm done how how am I going to do how am I going to do something valuable for the |
| 32:30 | next two hours like you know I remember in my 20s I would go out um like on a |
| 32:36 | week night go to a nightclub party party party come home have a 2hour snooze have |
| 32:44 | a V cuz I didn't like Red Bull i liked V have a V very specific yeah very spec |
| 32:50 | yes have a V and then go to work and I'd work and be no problem and then when I |
| 32:55 | was living in Hong Kong um I was already in my 30 I was just just turned 30 and a |
| 33:00 | lot of the people I was working with were out of university in their 20s and |
| 33:05 | then they would go out and have quite a lot more sleep and then the next day |
| 33:10 | tell me how tired they were and what is with this generation you're so weak like |
| 33:16 | seriously I go out back to back and still work i just needed my V like I was |
| 33:22 | just I looked at them i'm like what is wrong with you you need to see a doctor |
| 33:25 | like cuz your 20s is where you should be doing it all and enjoying and |
| 33:32 | building that foundation so that you can keep the momentum going even when you |
| 33:37 | have I I think it is it's worth saying that I |
| 33:42 | would have been doing that stuff at home anyway like I still would have been at |
| 33:47 | like what I would have done is if I'd left work at six I would have gone home |
| 33:52 | had some dinner or bought some dinner on the way home or something and then I |
| 33:55 | would have just got back on my computer and done the same things anyway but I |
| 33:59 | would they wouldn't have progressed my work but like it would have been like |
| 34:03 | some side thing I was doing and if I had and if I had had the idea of a side |
| 34:06 | hustle to do then maybe that would have been cool right but instead I was just |
| 34:10 | like well I'll just do it at work and that'll advance me at work and that's |
| 34:12 | fine right but for me there wasn't like I wasn't trading off something else i |
| 34:18 | wasn't like well I'm not seeing my friends because I'm doing this like I |
| 34:22 | was doing the same thing I would have been doing anyway but you enjoyed it too |
| 34:24 | i think it would have been different if you didn't enjoy it or didn't want to |
| 34:28 | see and I'm not again I'm not advocating for people to put in those hours if you |
| 34:33 | don't want to there's there's no rules um and you can still succeed in life |
| 34:39 | even working 9 to5 and that's it um but if you enjoy it and you've got a goal |
| 34:45 | and like I want to get there quickly then yes you can if you can afford that |
| 34:50 | space and that's a privileged thing to have right i was like oh cool like I'd |
| 34:54 | found like a really like super super cheap like I was renting like a room um |
| 35:02 | not like a house or a kitchen or like you know it was like a room and um like |
| 35:07 | 80 bucks a week you know and um I had to pay for I had to pay for parking on sink |
| 35:14 | road and aside from that like and meals and how much was parking 10 bucks a day |
| 35:20 | 10 bucks a day 10 bucks when I was at uni I had to pay $4 a day parking that |
| 35:25 | was amazing I also remember it was 80 cents a liter on petrol yeah I mean back |
| 35:30 | in my day these say you know wow we're just doing the old people talk now so I |
| 35:34 | know it's useful to people important to note then how things are different today |
| 35:41 | um financially for any any age really because if you're thinking about okay |
| 35:47 | university students coming out wanting to get a job they can't you were 21 like |
| 35:51 | I want to move out like that might not be possible for 21 year olds today |
| 35:58 | and then you let's just say you've got someone in their 30s or 40s wanting to |
| 36:03 | do a career change and want to move up quickly not only do they probably not |
| 36:07 | have that time to put those 16 hours in but they might not have the finances to |
| 36:12 | take that step back to learn so it's a lot harder nowadays to |
| 36:20 | um elevate yourself quickly because of the financial restraints because they |
| 36:27 | have to pay the rents and or live with mom and dad i mean I didn't move out |
| 36:32 | until I was 25 25 almost 26 but that's because my |
| 36:37 | mom helped me hostage and wouldn't let me move out um it's true but there could |
| 36:42 | be a whole different genre of podcast that we can go into yeah it's true but |
| 36:46 | that's what So we're talking about European parents who want to hold on to |
| 36:51 | their kids until they get married um and sometimes even then you're married great |
| 36:56 | your husband or wife can move in don't care we all live together um but when I |
| 37:03 | So I was already I had a lot of money saved up because I was still working |
| 37:06 | from home and that's one of the benefits of living with your family is that you |
| 37:10 | can save up but that that helped me to move out and pay my way when when that |
| 37:18 | happened but again it was still 80 cents a liter like it was still cheaper to go |
| 37:25 | and do the grocery shop and live on my own and work the extra hours and go out |
| 37:30 | and see my friends because I could afford all that and even go shopping on |
| 37:35 | the weekends like I could afford that thing it's a bit harder now um for |
| 37:39 | people to do all of it but I also think that's why um what you were saying |
| 37:43 | Lachlan about working hard those 14 months to be able to progress in your |
| 37:48 | career faster so again we're not advocating for 16 hour work days but if |
| 37:54 | that's something you want to achieve to get that higher salary faster to get |
| 37:57 | that promotion faster it could be something to definitely consider to do |
| 38:02 | yeah i mean I would be really like let's not pretend I was a |
| 38:07 | healthy person in that 14 months right like not advocating this is necessarily |
| 38:13 | a good option but to to what you're saying like there are times when you |
| 38:18 | have a choice to make to consider things like |
| 38:21 | this and like I don't know like depending on |
| 38:27 | what your circumstances are sometimes this is a good choice and mine it was |
| 38:31 | really just like what else have I got going on i need to get good at this |
| 38:34 | otherwise I'm going to be here forever right doing five different odd jobs in |
| 38:39 | Berat which is not what I wanted and soyour direction |
| 38:44 | so after this where where did you head to um well I went back to that |
| 38:50 | conference again the next year met more people including a young woman who lived |
| 38:56 | in Sydney and so um after a while I ended up moving to Sydney i got myself a |
| 39:02 | job there uh and |
| 39:07 | um and again like the the people that you know like I got the job |
| 39:14 | from like they were people from the conference or they knew the people at |
| 39:18 | the conference or you know like I was connected into the community and so I |
| 39:22 | was an applicant who stood out right so did you go with that same mentality like |
| 39:26 | you did the first time like what am I here for i'm here for a reason i'm going |
| 39:29 | to push myself to reach out and get more networks i was just like I didn't I |
| 39:34 | probably didn't even know the term networking then maybe I did and if I had |
| 39:37 | I wouldn't have like I would have felt bad about it or something but that's |
| 39:41 | what I was doing absolutely i was like I want to meet more people i want to like |
| 39:44 | these people are all really cool let me just go meet a bunch of them i'm going |
| 39:47 | to have great conversations it's going to be fun and I'm going to do this for |
| 39:51 | like the conference is two days and you go like the day before and there's a |
| 39:54 | party the night before and there's a like there's dinners and there's you |
| 39:58 | know stuff right and then the Saturday it's like you completely spent because |
| 40:03 | you spent three days all of the socializing all of the everything right |
| 40:08 | but made a bunch of friends had a bunch of connections knew a bunch of like |
| 40:12 | significant people who had like roles that I admire that I could ask for help |
| 40:18 | or ask for jobs and and so I was like I want to move to Sydney how do I get a |
| 40:23 | job in Sydney and I just emailed a bunch of people I'd met and they were like |
| 40:26 | Yeah like come and you know we've got this role open or that role open and um |
| 40:32 | so I had a bunch of interviews and and got a job and moved to Sydney." |
| 40:37 | Um and then the job the job after that was somebody who I hadn't spoken to in |
| 40:42 | like three years but I'd met at that first |
| 40:45 | conference and he was like do you want to come and work for me and I was like |
| 40:49 | sure so I went to work for him um and then you know the the one after |
| 40:57 | that was people who'd met me at like that those community meetings |
| 41:02 | and stuff who were like we want you to come and work for Microsoft because of |
| 41:06 | the connections you have in the community and the the roles you know |
| 41:09 | that you you've had and and that stuff and so suddenly I was like it's like |
| 41:14 | Microsoft is trying to hire me why is this happening um and like I didn't I |
| 41:19 | still didn't have that confidence i still wasn't I was very confused and and |
| 41:23 | they were like that's that's imposter syndrome now yeah but I don't know I |
| 41:28 | mean so I went to Microsoft and I was there for almost three years and |
| 41:33 | um I learned so much right giant company flying me all around the world for all |
| 41:38 | kinds of stuff like it was a lot um and I got a lot out of that but |
| 41:45 | um uh I don't know what happened after that one after that one I met somebody |
| 41:49 | else and I was she wanted to move to New York City and I was like um we're not |
| 41:56 | married or anything so I'm like well I guess I have to get my own job in New |
| 41:59 | York City how do I do that um and so again like because of people I'd met |
| 42:06 | at community events I just emailed like 200 |
| 42:11 | people and I was like can you I need to move to New York City can you help me |
| 42:15 | find a job and like 40 people wrote back and most |
| 42:19 | of them were just like I don't know man I'll like I'll like ask my mates but I |
| 42:23 | don't know but some people had answers you know well this is the thing this is |
| 42:28 | so we've got this networking course that's it's coming out and it's about |
| 42:34 | um about networking networking course about networking yes but it's about um |
| 42:39 | where to find these networks and the best place to start is with the people |
| 42:43 | you already know because their your network that person you're tapping into |
| 42:49 | their networks as well so like they say I don't know but let me find out let me |
| 42:53 | talk to my networks and then their networks can be like oh hang on let me |
| 42:58 | talk to my networks and that's how you you get out there put spread the reach |
| 43:03 | and it's not just about going out and meeting someone new necessarily and |
| 43:07 | building a new relationship starting with the relationships you have first |
| 43:11 | and you've worked hard going to these conferences meeting people being social |
| 43:16 | building those foundations to already have your network so you can tap into |
| 43:20 | their network and that's what you doing and this is exactly what we say to |
| 43:24 | people as well go to those conferences do those things and like you said the 3 |
| 43:31 | years later from that first conference you got a job cuz it's not everything's |
| 43:35 | going to align and magically happen instantly but as long as you keep those |
| 43:40 | contacts warm it's every so often reach out hey how you going or even now you |
| 43:46 | know maybe not there back then but now on LinkedIn just every year when it's |
| 43:49 | their birthday happy birthday you know just something LinkedIn does it all for |
| 43:53 | you just something to so they can see that you're still around that can really |
| 43:58 | help benefit because it's it's planting the seed way back when and staying in |
| 44:03 | their memory and you never know when that connection is going to help and |
| 44:07 | it's not even necessarily I've got a job for you it's like hey I actually know |
| 44:10 | someone else that you'd be great to connect with and it happens so much who |
| 44:16 | can help like I remember um I was made redundant uh with it was my dream job my |
| 44:24 | dream HR role and I loved every second of it and then when that company was |
| 44:29 | brought out by a large organization they got rid of uh sales HR and accounts cuz |
| 44:34 | they already had that they didn't need to double up and so obviously I was |
| 44:38 | devastated but that day I still I was doing my masters so I still had a class |
| 44:42 | that night so I was driving and I had an exam or a test or something and so I |
| 44:47 | approached my lecturer and just before the exam I said "Look I'm not in the |
| 44:52 | right head space i was just made redundant um so please be generous with |
| 44:57 | your marking keep that in mind." Right she's like "No no problem." |
| 45:02 | A+ just keep that in mind bear in mind when you're marking my grades that I'm |
| 45:07 | not in the right headsp space and I was thinking about what I want to do with my |
| 45:12 | future and all that and actually at the time I had a partner but we were doing |
| 45:15 | long distance and I was just thinking you know I'm done i'm done with work i'm |
| 45:20 | done with everything maybe I just want to focus on my relationship now it's |
| 45:24 | long distance maybe I don't know so I took my mom out for lunch and I sat her |
| 45:30 | down and I said "I I know exactly what I want to do with my life." What is it i |
| 45:36 | said "It's nothing i want to do absolutely." I can tell already that |
| 45:39 | that would have gone so well she was nervous she was I mean again European |
| 45:43 | mother you know like so she was nervous um and I was like I really am confident |
| 45:50 | about this nothing I it feels right to me and I was dead said nothing we |
| 45:55 | finished lunch she paid for it because she was like "You need to start saving." |
| 46:02 | And I got a phone call right after that and it was another lecturer at the |
| 46:08 | university Mon University and he said "Oh your teacher told me that you were |
| 46:12 | just uh lost your job." Like "This is true." He goes "Well I have an |
| 46:16 | opportunity for you um I know someone at NBN looking for somebody um can I set up |
| 46:24 | a interview with you and just when I decided to do nothing |
| 46:30 | but I mean the thing that blows my mind about that is you know you just you were |
| 46:34 | like saying it as a like an aside kind of right like it wasn't anything about |
| 46:39 | deliberately looking for work or asking asking your lecturer to help you find |
| 46:44 | anything like that it was nothing i just Yeah she mentioned well the fact that I |
| 46:49 | was even brought up in a conversation between two teachers was I don't know |
| 46:53 | maybe incredible he said something she said well I know someone I I don't know |
| 46:57 | how that their conversation went but at that time I was not very good at saying |
| 47:02 | no to things I had this FOMO right before FOMO was FOMO before the term |
| 47:07 | FOMO came out I had this fear of missing out and I thought if I said no to things |
| 47:13 | I would lose opportunities and they will never come back again i was still in my |
| 47:17 | 20s so um I felt like I had to say yes and the role was actually nothing to do |
| 47:23 | with HR it was a financial reporting and I'm really really bad at maths and my |
| 47:29 | dad he's an accountant and he said a couple of wrong zeros and you'll be |
| 47:34 | fired right and he wasn't I knew he wasn't wrong um but I still said yes to |
| 47:40 | the role even though I absolutely hated it and I made friends with someone |
| 47:44 | within the HR department and every two three weeks I would call him and ask him |
| 47:49 | is there a job in open in the HR department and it was always no no and |
| 47:54 | in the end I decided okay I'm going to study full-time and then move to Hong |
| 47:59 | Kong to be with my partner but the point is is that I got an offer when I wasn't |
| 48:04 | even looking through a network even when I should have said no to the opportunity |
| 48:10 | but I got it gave me a chance to save a little bit of money and actually work |
| 48:13 | out what I wanted to do with my future as opposed to just nothing um and I did |
| 48:19 | do nothing for a period in Hong Kong and I was bored out of my mind so you know |
| 48:25 | I'm glad that nothing is not a thing for me but |
| 48:31 | um yeah long very long story short you never |
| 48:37 | know how and when an opportunity will come |
| 48:42 | and who it'll come from that's the thing you never know i mean so the job I ended |
| 48:47 | up taking in New York was |
| 48:52 | um you know one of those 200 people I emailed was a woman that I had met we'd |
| 48:58 | had one conversation right like we were at a |
| 49:03 | thing we're having a good time we got to know then we followed each other on |
| 49:06 | Twitter or something sorry to interrupt you for a second did you attach your |
| 49:09 | resume to that email uh good question i don't know |
| 49:15 | probably not would you suggest to add to your resume or not why not |
| 49:20 | no I probably didn't um I I That sounds like a great idea i probably should have |
| 49:26 | you know I mean maybe I did maybe I was like in case you don't know what I've |
| 49:30 | done here is the things I've done um I mean LinkedIn was still a thing then so |
| 49:38 | um you know maybe I include a link i'd be interesting to look at the email |
| 49:42 | actually um sometimes when I'm searching for something in my email archive I come |
| 49:46 | across like one email from that thread and then I'm just I'm always so touched |
| 49:51 | by how many people wrote back to me and we're like I don't know man i don't know |
| 49:55 | how I can help but I'm like I'll think of something like people like cool you |
| 50:01 | know that's just a testimony because yes in the beginning we tal we |
| 50:06 | said that people like to help and people are supportive but if the relationship |
| 50:11 | wasn't good if they didn't feel the right connection with you or didn't |
| 50:15 | believe in you they wouldn't put you forward because it's it's a safe face |
| 50:20 | thing right so you you represent them so they don't want to be embarrassed well |
| 50:26 | you're referring somebody in that reflects on you and yeah I mean so this |
| 50:32 | woman I'd spoken with her once we'd had one conversation and then followed each |
| 50:35 | other on Twitter and I thought each other were cool kind of thing or |
| 50:37 | whatever right and she gets this email and she introduces me to her old company |
| 50:43 | she had left them like a month before but she was like "They're still they're |
| 50:47 | hiring this role that would be you'd be great you should talk to |
| 50:51 | them." And which is you know how I ended up interviewing for that role uh I was |
| 50:56 | interviewing for a number of roles but that particular one like um yeah |
| 51:02 | literally from a person I'd only spoken to once who I just put on the list |
| 51:05 | because I was like she literally lives in New York City so I'll add her to the |
| 51:10 | email yeah moved to Melbourne where I had never lived before despite the fact |
| 51:13 | I'm from Bellerat you know so I lived in CRA and Bellerat and Sydney but never |
| 51:21 | Melbourne and didn't know what Sorry yeah Melbourne obviously Melbourne's a |
| 51:26 | great city like I love Melbourne right and it was always my city as a kid |
| 51:29 | because if we were going to the city we would just drive to Melbourne like you |
| 51:32 | know um and my cousins lived there and you know I spent a lot of time in |
| 51:36 | Melbourne as a kid but I never lived there and coming there as like a a grown |
| 51:41 | adult um who had a bunch of friends who'd moved there over the years and um |
| 51:46 | that was really cool and looking around at work I was interviewing at a bunch of |
| 51:53 | the big tech startups based in Melbourne for like senior roles |
| 51:59 | um maybe not necessarily executive but aiming for that or or the level |
| 52:04 | below and um my partner uh then who's my partner |
| 52:10 | now was like I don't want to go work for somebody else again i want to do my own |
| 52:15 | thing and I was like "Cool fair you should totally do that uh I'm going to |
| 52:20 | keep interviewing these companies." And then she was like "Uh I'm going to need |
| 52:24 | somebody to help me do this thing." And I was like "Really i don't how's that |
| 52:30 | going to work like none of us know how to run a business we're not sales people |
| 52:34 | we're both just programmers like what are we going to you know do?" |
| 52:40 | Um but again maybe it was something about the let's move to you know I mean |
| 52:45 | not a new country back to the old country but um something about changing |
| 52:49 | countries and having that just like gap of it was kind of like when I left the |
| 52:54 | army it was like well everything's new what do I do now like maybe this is the |
| 52:59 | time to try you know my own thing which was a joint thing but like run run a |
| 53:06 | business and like learn about that and I was like "Okay we can try that." And |
| 53:13 | um so we started a business together like a consultancy and that's still what |
| 53:17 | I do now um nearly eight years later uh so we didn't go broke um which is which |
| 53:26 | is good good um yeah there there have been times when we thought we might um |
| 53:32 | that happens but um learning to you know learning to run a business is a whole |
| 53:37 | deal um and it was a new thing to embrace and be like well because then |
| 53:43 | all the other skills about like learning to get a job right now I'm learning to |
| 53:47 | get like a small job like a let's work for these people for 3 months or let's |
| 53:52 | sell them this like one packaged thing or like those are real |
| 53:58 | um uh like it's learning to do it again and again and again at a smaller scale |
| 54:03 | and that's hard uh but like a lot of it's still applicable I guess so I have |
| 54:08 | a few questions one that's got nothing to do with uh your career just I want to |
| 54:14 | No no i want to see if it feels the same as if if it's every expat or if it was |
| 54:20 | just me when you were working and living in uh New York did it feel like you were |
| 54:27 | working or did it feel like you were on a working holiday even though you were |
| 54:31 | living there certainly at first there were elements of the latter it was like |
| 54:36 | This is adventure every day is an adventure like how do I get like how do |
| 54:40 | you do your commute right how do I get from Brooklyn to |
| 54:45 | Manhattan how do I get to work when it's snowing?" like there was you know like |
| 54:51 | um one of the people I worked with at that first company he had like a little |
| 54:57 | web comic strip thing on the side and he used to love talking to me because he |
| 55:04 | would um it would it would give him content right because like he he would |
| 55:10 | he would sort of do this like he he wouldn't say it was like the Australian |
| 55:14 | guy I work with he would have like some kind like somebody from um Nebraska or |
| 55:18 | something right he'd be like I was his but I was his stereotypical not from the |
| 55:22 | city person and then it'd be like he would |
| 55:25 | contrast my the thing I was talking about with like what a New Yorker would |
| 55:28 | think of it and because I'd be like have you guys seen it today it's incredible |
| 55:35 | the snow the big it's so gorgeous out there it's wild and like everyone else |
| 55:41 | in the office is like I had to get here in the snow and |
| 55:45 | and they're all complaining and I'm like this is incredible and the the New |
| 55:49 | Yorkers are like this sucks and um you know it doesn't snow in Australia it is |
| 55:54 | exciting exactly when you first see snowfall for the first time the mountain |
| 55:58 | you pay hundreds of dollars to see the snow in Australia yeah and so you know |
| 56:03 | like I had this fresh perspective and this like it was exciting you know and |
| 56:08 | so for a long time there was definitely that element of all of this stuff is new |
| 56:12 | like even like summer yeah we have summer in Australia we have barbecues |
| 56:16 | but like you know rooftop barbecue in New York City is pretty different to a |
| 56:20 | backyard barbecue in Australia and um like I didn't even actually I knew one |
| 56:26 | person in New York who had a backyard but um yeah they were pretty |
| 56:31 | lucky um but uh that was in Brooklyn on |
| 56:35 | Manhattan um but still like I only knew one right everyone else is in some dinky |
| 56:40 | little apartment and this person was like a multi-person share house whatever |
| 56:44 | but they did have a backyard and uh there was definitely elements of like |
| 56:50 | going and living and working in another country is such a cool adventure it is |
| 56:55 | so it's really formed a lot of like exposure to a different business culture |
| 57:01 | um learning how to communicate with like like I know how to talk to Americans |
| 57:06 | that we use the same language but you don't right like we actually speak a bit |
| 57:09 | differently we talk differently we have different attitudes |
| 57:13 | um to certain kinds of things and learning to actually cross those |
| 57:16 | cultural boundaries even in what most people would think are relatively small |
| 57:20 | cultural boundaries as opposed to like Hong Kong or wherever like that's a cool |
| 57:26 | thing you know I worked in Hong Kong for a month I was in a hotel room for a |
| 57:30 | month working with a bunch of people and I was like I hated that by the end of |
| 57:36 | the month because I didn't have a real home or a place to go or I was just in |
| 57:40 | this hotel you know and I was only supposed to be there for a week and it |
| 57:42 | was four um but like I had other opportunities to work in other places as |
| 57:48 | well but you know being in New York like that was two years and it was uh yeah |
| 57:54 | incredible experience was wonderful so then it brings me to the next point is |
| 57:58 | that when you started your business you're like well I don't know how to do |
| 58:01 | sales and you that's okay i mean yes it's a big component of a business but |
| 58:06 | you probably didn't even realize or maybe you do or did I don't know but the |
| 58:10 | amount of transferable skills that you got not just from those odd jobs that |
| 58:16 | you did but the your whole exper your whole life is that the resilience that |
| 58:21 | you needed from to go from one thing to another from one significant change to |
| 58:28 | another um the res the the skills that you need to start again to rebuild to |
| 58:34 | start relationships and all of that moved with you to this new project |
| 58:40 | that probably made this project a lot more successful than should you have |
| 58:45 | started it and not just because you're bringing in with you um that |
| 58:51 | experience within the industry you know I can't just start a business at 20ome |
| 58:58 | without having that experience of understanding how to program and all of |
| 59:02 | that but it's all the other life experiences that you have had from ups |
| 59:09 | and downs definitely like learning you know like this is the thing right so |
| 59:15 | sometimes people say to me well does the five years in the army feel like a waste |
| 59:21 | and I'm like no are you kidding like it's shaped who I am like it taught me |
| 59:26 | so much and yeah I have like cool stories about standing on a tank when |
| 59:30 | the turret fires and whatever right like um |
| 59:35 | but like the skills that I learned and I don't necessarily mean |
| 59:39 | like you know doing something with a rifle or digging a hole or whatever i |
| 59:44 | mean like like communicating with people and sharing knowledge and learning from |
| 59:48 | others and like um like grit and determination and perseverance like all |
| 59:55 | of those elements of that like they help me with everything else and that's true |
| 01:00:00 | of every job that I had you know those skills do continue to transfer |
| 01:00:04 | everything you do is part of the puzzle of what you can do |
| 01:00:09 | next and um you know in my work now like companies ask us to come in and help |
| 01:00:15 | them with challenges they're having right and sometimes people are bit |
| 01:00:21 | worried that we're going to like show up and say everything they did before now |
| 01:00:23 | is crap and we're going to throw it all out or |
| 01:00:26 | something and and I'm like "No no no that's not crap that's the thing you did |
| 01:00:32 | before to get you here is why you're here like this is how you got here |
| 01:00:40 | therefore it's awesome because you stayed in business for this long or you |
| 01:00:45 | kept this team going for that long or you whatever maybe it's not what you |
| 01:00:49 | need next maybe you need to do something else now that's why we're talking but |
| 01:00:53 | that doesn't mean that what you were doing is is useless it's what got you |
| 01:00:58 | here it was what gives you the the the capacity to do the next thing 100% |
| 01:01:03 | that's exactly what we tell people all the time because they they have the same |
| 01:01:07 | fear just like the people you talk to the clients we talk to it's oh you know |
| 01:01:11 | this study that I did or this job that I did you know it's been a waste of my |
| 01:01:16 | time no it's not because everything you've learned all the skills you've |
| 01:01:20 | acquired the knowledge you've acquired it all helps you sure maybe there's one |
| 01:01:25 | little task here that is irrelevant and you know like people say "Oh I'm never |
| 01:01:29 | going to use that skill." Maybe not but as a whole it's made you who you are now |
| 01:01:34 | it's brought you to where you are now and it just makes you stronger for the |
| 01:01:38 | next steps and it comes down to their confidence their selfm motivation and |
| 01:01:43 | their belief within themselves or lack thereof so as a final question I'd like |
| 01:01:48 | to know Lachlan or we would like to know what advice would you give your |
| 01:01:52 | 18-year-old self my instinctive response is don't join |
| 01:01:57 | the army but I've just said that actually that was a good thing so um I |
| 01:02:03 | mean I guess it in some ways I think it's you know some really classic advice |
| 01:02:12 | like a lot of the 10 years after leaving school was me trying to find what I |
| 01:02:21 | really wanted to do what I really cared about and um but before I you know |
| 01:02:27 | before I did that like I was you know I was trying to get a degree because my |
| 01:02:32 | parents thought I should have a degree right I was um and then I was trying to |
| 01:02:37 | succeed in the army because you know I but a bunch of other people thought that |
| 01:02:42 | I should right and then you know um so I think there's some version of like I |
| 01:02:50 | would I would love to tell myself to be like no follow your dream but I didn't |
| 01:02:54 | have one then but like spend the time to find it |
| 01:02:59 | right like if I had done that earlier that would have changed a lot of |
| 01:03:04 | things in my my life um I suspect greatly for the better uh |
| 01:03:12 | particularly around my mental health and stuff like that right like I think years |
| 01:03:17 | of chasing the wrong things things I didn't personally care about |
| 01:03:23 | um you know uh had impacts on me that weren't |
| 01:03:29 | apparent at the time but like that I really see later and so I would tell |
| 01:03:36 | myself to to spend that time then at 18 at 19 to work out where I actually want |
| 01:03:42 | to go what I really want to do um and hey like if it turns out I'm |
| 01:03:48 | wrong five years later that's fine it turns out right like cool but but having |
| 01:03:53 | having tried to do that rather than just adopting other people's dreams for me as |
| 01:03:57 | my own |
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