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Struggling with Behavioural Questions in Interviews?
They are the most common and also the toughest for many candidates.
This free E-book shows you how to answer them with confidence.
They are the most common and also the toughest for many candidates.
This free E-book shows you how to answer them with confidence.
Career Reshaped Episode 16: Why Workplace Culture Can Make or Break Your Career!
Ever feel like you’re supposed to have it all figured out—but deep down, you’re still trying to find your voice in your career?
You’re not alone.
In this episode of Career Reshaped, Natasha and Pauline sit down with Ellie—an engineering leader, executive coach, and advisor to tech executives—who shares what it really looks like to build a career that reflects who you are, not just what you do.
Ellie opens up about her journey through consulting, leadership, and coaching, and the moments that shaped her into someone who leads with clarity, care, and confidence. She talks about what it means to grow a career in tech while staying grounded, how to navigate self-doubt, and why your values should guide your next move—not your job title.
This conversation is full of insight, reflection, and gentle reminders that you don’t have to mold yourself to fit someone else’s version of success. Whether you’re managing a team, making a pivot, or just figuring things out, Ellie’s story will encourage you to lead with more intention—and more of yourself.
🎧 Tune in for a refreshing take on leadership, growth, and the freedom that comes from finally owning your story.
Discussion Overview
Creating a culture of trust starts with psychological safety. When team members feel safe to speak up, ask questions, and own mistakes, they perform better. Flexibility, clear expectations, and a no-micromanagement approach help teams thrive.
Career satisfaction often comes when values evolve. It’s about recognizing what matters most—like growth, creativity, freedom, or balance—and making career choices that align with those values instead of chasing titles or traditional success.
Shifting careers—even drastically—is possible with curiosity and self-learning. It's about recognizing transferable skills, staying open to reinvention, and not letting fear of starting over block progress. Every chapter builds on the last.
Working remotely requires intentional communication. Over-communicating, being mindful of tone, and regularly checking in helps bridge the physical gap and maintain connection and trust within teams.
A strong culture is one that empowers rather than controls. It values collaboration, inclusion, and continuous learning. The best environments encourage people to bring their full selves to work and grow through feedback and shared purpose.
Don’t be afraid to explore new paths. Growth isn’t always linear. Be honest about what excites you, stay open to learning, and define success on your own terms. Sometimes the most fulfilling roles come from the most unexpected changes.
Podcast Transcript:
| Time | Transcript |
|---|---|
| 00:00 | hi and welcome to another episode of Career Res i'm Pauline i'm Natasha and |
| 00:05 | on today's episode we have Ellie who is an engineer with many years of |
| 00:09 | consulting experience leading projects and teams she is a certified |
| 00:13 | organizational and executive coach she was part of the Victorian Skills |
| 00:17 | Authority Industry Advisory Group for the digital skills and jobs program at |
| 00:22 | Blackmail she advises executives and technology leaders on effective |
| 00:26 | engineering practices that scale ellie is also the director of engineering at |
| 00:32 | Orderly Meds hey it's Natasha and I'm Pauline we're so pumped to bring you |
| 00:38 | even bigger and better stuff this season 2 of Career Reshaped we've got new |
| 00:42 | guests free master classes and all the good vibes you'll only find here so |
| 00:47 | don't forget to hit subscribe follow us on Spotify at Careershaped and check us |
| 00:53 | out on Instagram at my.career.angels hello thank you for joining us Ellie |
| 00:59 | really happy to have you here today with us um thank you for having me so we've |
| 01:03 | just introduced you and it's a very exciting introduction that you have |
| 01:06 | there but I guess everybody wants to know how did you get to where you are |
| 01:12 | today cool so um I don't know how to answer that i uh Okay so I guess what |
| 01:19 | where did you start with it when when you went to school what did you think |
| 01:24 | you were going to do with your life i had a 10 year plan and I wanted to be an |
| 01:27 | architect oh that's great that's really solid |
| 01:32 | so why not architect what happened i didn't have um grades good enough to be |
| 01:36 | an architect um and I ended up being a mechanical artist in advertising studios |
| 01:42 | for a while yeah so I love that that So you didn't have the grades in that |
| 01:48 | moment though when you knew that that wasn't going to be a path that you were |
| 01:52 | taking what What was going through your head like what were you feeling and what |
| 01:56 | support did you have around you to make different choices i think I still wanted |
| 02:01 | to do something that was a bit creative uh and ended up still doing something um |
| 02:09 | that is around design but not exactly what I wanted and I really enjoy being a |
| 02:15 | mechanical artist because you um you get into a flow of getting things done which |
| 02:22 | is I think a nice um a nice state to bebut um I've only done that for about 10 |
| 02:28 | years you asked me before how I got to where I am so I'm really have had like |
| 02:33 | four different careers in my life and this is my fourth one and it's probably |
| 02:38 | not going to be my last because I still have things that I want to learn amazing |
| 02:43 | yeah um after being uh after working for advertising studios I've actually met my |
| 02:50 | ex-husband and changed to working in scuba diving so I did that for about a |
| 02:57 | decade and as part Oh that's so cool and as part of that we moved to a couple |
| 03:03 | different countries i worked in various countries and I managed a couple of dive |
| 03:08 | operations but then I had friends that were doing web development and that was |
| 03:14 | of interest so I taught myself how to code h and I was one of the first one in |
| 03:21 | the period when people didn't have codeacademy so you had to do it at home by |
| 03:26 | yourself from books and people that you've met in the community and um I |
| 03:32 | taught myself how to code and I've been doing this for the last 20 years i mean |
| 03:35 | that takes a lot of discipline to teach yourself how to code like teaching |
| 03:40 | yourself a whole language yes um that's not easy no I I think different people |
| 03:48 | do need some structure which is why going to school is useful for some but |
| 03:53 | the nice thing about the web development that there are so many different |
| 03:56 | resources online that are free at the moment that if this is what you want to |
| 04:01 | do this is something that you can do you just need to be motivated and regular um |
| 04:09 | and it's one step in the right direction but it's not enough because I think at |
| 04:14 | some point you also need to work with other people and learn from other people |
| 04:19 | as well so how would you suggest others to get to that point so if if they can't |
| 04:24 | go to uni if they can't go to school and they have to teach themselves and |
| 04:27 | they're using these free resources how would they go about getting those |
| 04:30 | mentors to learn from other people i would join a community of people uh of |
| 04:36 | like-minded people and just try to learn from them maybe try to find a mentor |
| 04:42 | somebody that can help you along the way um I would look at internship programs |
| 04:49 | where you can go into a company and learn on the job uh there's uh a lot of |
| 04:55 | companies nowadays especially with women in technology that they do various |
| 04:59 | programs to try and make the team um more diverse and work with women to get |
| 05:06 | them upskilled i've done a couple of those programs for two employers two two |
| 05:12 | companies and so with the internship I think a lot of people feel that an |
| 05:17 | internship is only designed for kids fresh out of school but anyone |
| 05:25 | at any age you can intern is that correct yeah yeah so one of the things |
| 05:29 | that I've done I think that you've mentioned about me is I was part of the |
| 05:35 | uh a panel for the Victorian government the new digital jobs program and that |
| 05:41 | was all about 6 months of 3 months of training and 3 months of internship for |
| 05:46 | anybody at any age to be able to get into technology and they had they had 10 |
| 05:53 | different streams that you could have chosen you know which one was the best |
| 05:57 | fit for you now I know some avenues and how to find mentors and networks i know |
| 06:04 | for example there's an app called Meetup what other avenues |
| 06:08 | where else can people find these mentors cuz some people might be like I don't |
| 06:12 | even know where to start to look for a person to help me so I am part of the |
| 06:18 | Ruby community in Australia and in the early they still do them actually in the |
| 06:23 | early age they do monthly well again they still do them uh they do monthly |
| 06:27 | meetups in the big cities so if you go to the meetup for that community you get |
| 06:34 | to meet people and interact with them and socialize with them and network with |
| 06:38 | them and make um create friendships and they can help you maybe find jobs uh |
| 06:45 | there are also Slack communities online so one of the ones that I'm a |
| 06:50 | co-organizer for is called Tech Leading Ladies uh and they support women in tech |
| 06:57 | um so you have a lot of support there the one of the programs that they run is |
| 07:01 | uh used mentor loop as a tool to mentor women uh women in the community |
| 07:09 | um meetups Slack communities um trying to find jobs as a junior or an |
| 07:17 | intern or an apprentice would be a good place to find other people that can help |
| 07:22 | you as well that was great advice but I want to jump back a little bit yes back |
| 07:27 | in time and you mentioned well the scuba diving I think is amazing and not for me |
| 07:33 | but good for you i've been terrified but you mentioned traveling and going |
| 07:39 | overseas to do that as well so there are a lot of people that are interested in |
| 07:45 | that maybe not the scuba diving side but moving overseas or interstate for work |
| 07:50 | and you've done that so what were the challenges that you were met with and |
| 07:54 | what would you what advice would you give others on how to set themselves up |
| 07:58 | properly to do that move so 10 years ago I was uh working in Sydney and I was |
| 08:07 | working in the same in the Ruby community for a long time and I felt a |
| 08:10 | bit stale and I felt like I wanted a new adventure so I applied for a company in |
| 08:16 | the US uh and ended up traveling there for the interviews and then got an offer |
| 08:21 | and moved to New York for two years so excited |
| 08:25 | um wishes that was her life i went to Hong Kong i feel like Hong Kong |
| 08:32 | is just as uh busy and alive as New York so ah my version my version yeah I think |
| 08:40 | Hong Kong is wonderful um so so my suggestion um yeah apply for |
| 08:47 | various jobs um I think especially in the US with the 03 visa it's a lot |
| 08:53 | easier for Australians to actually start working for companies in the US for |
| 08:58 | example um it means moving away from family and |
| 09:04 | friends and that depends on how comfortable you are with that cuz that |
| 09:09 | can be a big shock to the system uh my suggestions for that is lean in on |
| 09:17 | people that you work with to create friendships at work and then look at |
| 09:22 | other avenues around you to create a community of friends and support in the |
| 09:27 | local areas where you are that's right there's always like expat communities |
| 09:32 | and I found um in Hong Kong I found people actually made friends by joining |
| 09:39 | clubs like sports clubs like a soccer or or whatnot and that's where they found |
| 09:46 | others who they already had a a foundation cuz they found something in |
| 09:50 | common an interest which was that activity and from there it moved on i |
| 09:55 | know with me I struggled in the beginning to make friends i actually |
| 09:59 | turned out that um my neighbor introduced me to some people that told |
| 10:05 | me about a job and it was through that job did I then make friends but it took |
| 10:13 | like you know a couple of people to get me there but again that's networking |
| 10:18 | it's talking to a neighbor being invited out for dinner meeting other people |
| 10:23 | telling them I'm looking for work i'm looking to start something like there's |
| 10:28 | some I know of an opportunity they're hiring now that's how it happened for me |
| 10:32 | so through a social event yeah i I think a lot of the job that I ended up getting |
| 10:37 | is through people that I know because it also it depends on the market currently |
| 10:43 | for example it is uh an employers market because there's a lot of people looking |
| 10:48 | more than you have jobs and actually having a connection with the people that |
| 10:54 | are advertising helps it helps put you you know uh make you differentiate you |
| 11:00 | from the rest of the people that are applying and um look I'll give you an |
| 11:05 | example uh many years ago I applied for a job at Sydney University and um I |
| 11:12 | didn't get the first job which I'm actually pretty happy that I didn't get |
| 11:14 | it because it was for a web designer and I don't think I'm a good enough designer |
| 11:19 | to do a good enough you know a solid enough job there but uh I made a good |
| 11:25 | enough impression in my interviews that when I finished the interviews around |
| 11:30 | they asked what do you want to do and I said well I want to work as a Rails |
| 11:34 | developer and a person there remembered me so next time when I had jobs come up |
| 11:39 | he approached me and he said "Hey I know you wanted this job we are advertising |
| 11:44 | for this job you should apply." And I said "Cool I should apply." And then I |
| 11:49 | applied but um I made it a point to actually I was traveling overseas and I |
| 11:56 | was traveling through Sydney so I'm at a point of stopping in Sydney and coming |
| 12:00 | into the office and introducing myself to put a face to the name so people can |
| 12:05 | meet me in person and then I did the set of interviews |
| 12:11 | uh online because I wasn't in the country at the time but I ended up |
| 12:14 | getting the job so I think making it personal helps yeah that that is |
| 12:20 | definitely a point of difference that's very clever to do that and you're 100% |
| 12:25 | right when you're saying it's an employer's market because there are just |
| 12:29 | so many people right now looking for work it's flooded and on the radio you |
| 12:34 | hear that oh it's getting better but it's not it's just getting harder and |
| 12:38 | harder for people to find work especially with the ghost jobs that are |
| 12:42 | out there or so often you find that they already know who they're hiring they're |
| 12:46 | hiring internally but they still legally have to advertise and that makes it |
| 12:50 | harder so that extra effort that you did by making sure you stopped in Sydney |
| 12:56 | putting a face to the name it's almost where we're at now where people need to |
| 13:01 | do that extra step to really make them be seen by the hiring managers and stand |
| 13:09 | out you need to have that uniqueness to you also like we were talking about |
| 13:13 | traveling and moving for work but I think |
| 13:16 | nowadays with being able to work remotely from home it's like you don't |
| 13:22 | have to travel to the US to work for US company i'm currently working with a US |
| 13:26 | company and I'm working from Australia so it's not impossible but it depends |
| 13:34 | depends what you want i guess that's absolutely correct so yeah you can the |
| 13:40 | world is now a lot more open because of co I think that's the only good thing |
| 13:44 | that's come of co was that we were able to see that we don't really need to |
| 13:49 | leave our houses to get things done uh but yeah you're right so it does come |
| 13:54 | down to the individual do you want the adventure outside of the house or do you |
| 14:01 | want it inside of the house and that's there's opportunities now to do all of |
| 14:06 | that i think in the current market a lot of companies are trying to get people |
| 14:11 | back into the office which I think it's a missed opportunity because that |
| 14:16 | flexibility means that you can hire a much more diverse team of people that |
| 14:21 | are more talented versus being restricted to people in that area that |
| 14:26 | you have also al also people will take a pay cut |
| 14:31 | or will take different opportunities for ones that gives them the flexibility to |
| 14:36 | work from home i I know plenty of people that actually think that way if if this |
| 14:41 | employer would let me work from home or even 3 days a week from home I'm happy |
| 14:45 | to take a pay cut but just some companies are still quite stubborn in |
| 14:49 | that aspect and I I understand that they believe they need you know bums in seats |
| 14:54 | that they need to see the people working they need to measure everything that way |
| 14:58 | but it's Pen's right you know since co there's been a huge shift and there are |
| 15:03 | so many ways to measure your employees work from home yeah okay you can't know |
| 15:10 | exactly when they've logged in unless they send you an email saying "Hey I've |
| 15:13 | logged in." But then they could just walk away and go do the washing but it's |
| 15:18 | the the quality that gets put out there it's are they getting their job done are |
| 15:22 | they doing it on time are they getting better results and most likely they |
| 15:27 | would be getting better results because they're more well-rested they didn't |
| 15:30 | have to drive half an hour to the office or they didn't have to listen to office |
| 15:35 | politics or get bullied by someone it's it is definitely something that |
| 15:40 | employers should continue allowing or offering as an option to those who want |
| 15:45 | it i think there's benefits to both home and office at home you can collaborate |
| 15:52 | so in the office you can collaborate a lot easier you're right there next to |
| 15:56 | the person the energies you can you know share ideas a lot faster and some people |
| 16:02 | actually are more productive in the office cuz there's less |
| 16:06 | distractions but then others might find that there's more distractions in the |
| 16:10 | office there's more breaks there's that person from accounts yip yapping all the |
| 16:15 | time like it it really depends on the individual and how the individual works |
| 16:19 | best i know for example me a hybrid role would be the best because I need that |
| 16:26 | downtime at home in peace but that social aspect also energizes me and |
| 16:32 | being able to connect with people and share ideas is also something that um I |
| 16:38 | need so to get out of the house so having options and flexibilities but I |
| 16:43 | also think it does come down to the position sometimes a position is really |
| 16:50 | very teambased and you need to be together you need to have these meetings |
| 16:55 | and ideas and otherwise you're just constantly on Zoom constantly messaging |
| 17:00 | each other sometimes is better to be in an environment where you are next to |
| 17:05 | that person i I think um you don't get serendipous meetings with people if |
| 17:12 | you're not in the office i get that and you get like the social interactions for |
| 17:17 | free but in the end of the day who pays the price for that and the people that |
| 17:22 | have to commute every day between 30 minutes to an hour each way are the |
| 17:27 | people that are paying the price and uh and I get it that it's less |
| 17:34 | uh prevalent at home or in a remote environment but it's not you just need |
| 17:39 | to be a bit more conscious in making that happen this is true i know I |
| 17:44 | remember even in my dream job I had the best HR job and I even this is well |
| 17:50 | before co and I even saw that a lot of the work I'm doing I can definitely do |
| 17:55 | from home I needed to be in the office at times I needed to talk to accounts I |
| 17:59 | needed to you know move around and talk to people it's HR after all you need to |
| 18:04 | be present and there but there the administrative side of things I didn't |
| 18:10 | need to sit there to in that office to do that I could have done it at home and |
| 18:14 | in that moment I had no distractions at home so I was actually a lot more |
| 18:20 | productive and when I did do anything from home I actually got a full day's |
| 18:25 | worth of work done in a half a day and I was like "Wow." Like I was shocked |
| 18:30 | because I wasn't distracted all the time by my |
| 18:35 | co-workers so I did see value in it so when I did approach my manager she's |
| 18:40 | like "Absolutely no way no no you're not working from home did she tell you did |
| 18:45 | she tell you depended on the Oh yeah she didn't tell me why she said absolutely |
| 18:51 | no way it's not an option i agree with um with Tash about um having bums and |
| 18:58 | seats and and expecting that if you're in the office you're working is doesn't |
| 19:02 | mean if you're working you can very much be in the office and not do any work and |
| 19:07 | the only way to actually uh measure that is by setting outcomes |
| 19:14 | objectives and outcomes and getting and letting people go and achieve them and |
| 19:19 | for that you sometimes you don't have to be in the office to make that happen |
| 19:23 | that's right there needs to be trust and I know that's not necessarily the |
| 19:28 | easiest thing but you got to earn that trust you earn that trust by doing the |
| 19:33 | job if you're not doing the job then you shouldn't be there that employment |
| 19:38 | should not be yours anyway i look I know someone that they under no circumstances |
| 19:44 | is there work from home option and I'd asked and basically it comes down to |
| 19:49 | trust because they've had employees that work from home didn't perform and now |
| 19:55 | they want to be watching them doing the job and that's a real shame |
| 20:02 | because clearly they were the wrong employees they were not they shouldn't |
| 20:07 | have been there they were they were let go but it's muddied the waters for |
| 20:13 | anyone else coming in because now this manager will not accept any flexibility |
| 20:19 | and it's a shame because I do know that they've lost a few candidates because of |
| 20:24 | that cuz that was the condition of the employee like well can I have hybrid can |
| 20:30 | I work from home no like I'm sorry I had to turn this opportunity down and I was |
| 20:35 | like you need to be flexible cannot be flexible purely because there were some |
| 20:41 | employees that didn't fulfill their responsibilities while working from home |
| 20:46 | i mean on a personal level I know that I would be better in an office environment |
| 20:51 | everybody's different i you pen you were mentioning about the distractions i get |
| 20:56 | distracted at home you know I see the washing needs to be done or this happens |
| 21:02 | or that happens so I I have to actually motivate myself more working from home |
| 21:09 | and getting things done and sitting and and because of my ability to easily get |
| 21:15 | distracted you know I I specifically have two screens as well so I have more |
| 21:20 | tabs open like no I've got to look at that work tab and that work tab so it |
| 21:23 | keeps me here focused more than than going and doing something else but |
| 21:28 | that's knowing who you are knowing what is better suited for you it doesn't mean |
| 21:32 | that employers should all think that oh well there's too many distractions at |
| 21:36 | home i completely agree there's too many distractions in the office too and the |
| 21:41 | amount of times that I had someone come to me just to have a chat at my desk in |
| 21:45 | an office environment i'm like I'm really busy right now you can't just say |
| 21:50 | get lost talking about what you value is I think very important knowing yourself |
| 21:57 | so knowing what you value is very important so usually when I have |
| 22:00 | conversations with friends or with people about how to find work that will |
| 22:04 | match you know what you want and what you need I ask them to start defining |
| 22:10 | their values what is the most important for them so for example one of the most |
| 22:14 | important for me is working with people that I can be friends with one uh I want |
| 22:20 | to continue growing in in my uh in my work and my abilities and skills so I |
| 22:26 | want one that gives me opportunities to keep growing and learning and another |
| 22:31 | thing that's important for me is to be able to do good quality code so in |
| 22:35 | coding and programming for me that's being able to write uh clean |
| 22:40 | maintainable sustainable code that is backed up by tests and if I don't get |
| 22:46 | that in a workplace then there will be too many conflicts and I will not enjoy |
| 22:51 | the work but um so one I think you want to know what's important for you and |
| 22:56 | what are your values but the second thing it's useful to also have the |
| 23:01 | company define what the values are and see if you match absolutely and I love |
| 23:06` | that you said that because um when we deal with our like long-term career |
| 23:12 | coaching clients or or and the career change clients the first two questions |
| 23:18 | we ask them on the form and in person when we talk is what are your goals and |
| 23:22 | what do you value most those are the first two questions just to make sure |
| 23:26 | that they're clear that they know what it is because it makes them think you |
| 23:31 | don't often know yeah because some people they value a purpose i want a |
| 23:36 | purpose-like company i want to make a difference in the world uh some people |
| 23:42 | want money because they want to they want more money because this is what |
| 23:46 | they currently need in their life and being very super clear about what you |
| 23:50 | want and what you need is very useful when you're looking for work before we |
| 23:54 | get into the nitty-gritty of this topic we just wanted to check in and say that |
| 23:58 | if you believe that you need some assistance and that we could help you |
| 24:02 | reach out to us today check out our website join our newsletter we'd love to |
| 24:06 | be in touch we wanted to quickly mention that subscribing to the podcast is the |
| 24:11 | best way to support the show and ensure you never miss an episode it's super |
| 24:17 | easy just click the subscribe button whenever you're listening thanks for |
| 24:22 | tuning in i think though a lot of people um they know what they want they may |
| 24:28 | even realize that the company doesn't share the same values but they feel that |
| 24:34 | they still need to accept the opportunity because it's been presented |
| 24:37 | to them and there's a fear that maybe there's nothing else or won't get |
| 24:42 | another opportunity and that's where the issues start arise because that's when |
| 24:47 | there's a downhill spiral going because then they |
| 24:51 | get um lost a little bit with that sort of |
| 24:57 | push between values and it becomes harder so I'm not a financial advisor |
| 25:04 | i'm you know disclaimer but make that clear but one of the things that I would |
| 25:10 | like to advise people is when they work to build up their um rainy day vault or |
| 25:18 | fu you know da that if something happens and it doesn't work for them with a |
| 25:24 | current employer and they're in a state when for their mental health they need |
| 25:29 | to leave they have enough money in the bank to be able to do that and not feel |
| 25:35 | like oh my god I need to find my next job immediately just to give them a bit |
| 25:38 | of buffer to find the right employer i love that there are so many times we |
| 25:43 | speak to people um and clients like looking at career change or they're |
| 25:49 | looking for a new job so they want you know the resume and all of that done and |
| 25:53 | they're just so desperate to leave but they say "I can't because I need the |
| 25:59 | income." And there's the only a few clients that we have that say to us |
| 26:05 | It's fine and I'm going to leave now because I have money saved up i have a |
| 26:10 | few months worth backed up because they do exactly that they have they have that |
| 26:15 | you know FU or rainy day fund where they can say you know what I don't need this |
| 26:19 | toxic environment anymore i'm leaving and I think that is fantastic advice not |
| 26:25 | everyone can save a lot but if you just do a little bit each time i mean I think |
| 26:31 | there's um a few different apps where I think Pauline you even used it once |
| 26:36 | where you pay through this um you tell me uh I'm pretty sure you |
| 26:43 | told me about it but I could be wrong uh you pay through this app and every time |
| 26:48 | you purchase something it takes a dollar and puts it into a separate account it |
| 26:54 | rounds up rich i'd be so I'd have Oh that app |
| 27:00 | sounds great i'm going to find it because I do a lot of purchases no I |
| 27:05 | anything to do with finances i I No I'm the worst with finances so there was a |
| 27:11 | period No matter what you purchase well there was a period where I did I was |
| 27:16 | unemployed and I actually did have savings i had savings purely because I |
| 27:22 | was living at home with my mom and dad that I was in my early 20ies and I |
| 27:28 | believe mid mid20ies actually so I didn't have to pay for anything my |
| 27:32 | parents were great they didn't charge me rent or anything like that can I have |
| 27:36 | your parents so they were really good actually they |
| 27:40 | were very supportive what um my dad actually was amazing um when I was our |
| 27:46 | dad our dad sorry our dad was amazing when I was um so I was made redundant |
| 27:53 | twice in my career and um one time was during the global financial crisis and |
| 28:00 | that's where I had some savings but I was still um I was devastated i felt |
| 28:06 | like it was I did something wrong even though it had nothing to do with me they |
| 28:10 | were firing everyone in the company and I I did uh go to um |
| 28:17 | Centerlink and they didn't give me money they said I had to wait 3 months cuz I |
| 28:22 | had too much savings and I was very upset well I was upset i said to her I |
| 28:28 | feel like I'm being punished for saving money like so you want me now to go |
| 28:35 | through everything I've saved for my future i'm being that's not really fair |
| 28:41 | you're here to support me while I'm unemployed and you're not doing that but |
| 28:45 | in any case I did get another job and I had gone through my savings living with |
| 28:50 | my parents why i I don't know but yes I still had the same [ __ ] likes to shop |
| 28:56 | but I was able to get save a lot more quickly after that again and then I |
| 29:02 | eventually moved out and then when I was made redundant the second time I'd now |
| 29:06 | already been living on my own i've been doing my |
| 29:11 | masters in the evening and I was made redundant and I was very upset and then |
| 29:15 | so my our dad said um that he will support me for one year so I can |
| 29:23 | complete my master's degree get all that sorted and then I can go back into into |
| 29:30 | the wild um and no more financial support which was really nice of him to |
| 29:36 | help me on that and I know not many people get that so I'm not saying talk |
| 29:41 | to daddy you know like that was very lucky um for me but then yes that's when |
| 29:47 | I moved overseas and then I got my job and but if I didn't have that support um |
| 29:53 | it definitely would have been a lot harder because I had no savings none |
| 29:58 | i've never been good at it yeah i I think uh being in Australia is very um |
| 30:04 | it it's really good with having help with hex and |
| 30:09 | um student loans that are very um low interest and you only start paying when |
| 30:15 | you have a job of a specific rate so that can be useful for people we were |
| 30:20 | talking before how can you get started at beginning in web development i think |
| 30:23 | one of the things that you can do and one of the things that I've done is |
| 30:26 | sometimes it's very hard to get your first job um and but you nothing is |
| 30:31 | stopping you from creating your own soul trader and then um actually um do web |
| 30:40 | development for family and friends at a very low cost to be able to practice |
| 30:45 | what you do to be able to have a portfolio and show examples for future |
| 30:50 | employers as well if you can't find your first job for example that's a really |
| 30:56 | good idea you could definitely do that i mean and even then you can go on Fiverr |
| 31:01 | Upwork all of that and start offering services especially you'll have a |
| 31:05 | portfolio to show for what you've done for family and friends they don't need |
| 31:08 | to know it's family and friends i think that's really good advice to give and I |
| 31:13 | mean even you know when Pauline and I first started we asked uh not family but |
| 31:19 | friends we're we're happy to help give us a review because you need to start |
| 31:24 | somewhere and I'm happy to be honest about that you know the the first few |
| 31:28 | clients we had were people we knew and your friends are usually happy to |
| 31:33 | support you first few not all i mean we've had a few clients that were |
| 31:37 | referred by friends um and that we and we did it for free um they were almost |
| 31:44 | like our guinea pigs in a way like we'll do your resume for free in exchange well |
| 31:49 | nothing's free so in exchange for a review so we can get the momentum going |
| 31:55 | but it gave us also the opportunity to test the waters see what works what |
| 32:01 | doesn't work um do people need it stuff like build our skills yeah just talk to |
| 32:06 | people to understand what they need so when we did come to putting out our |
| 32:12 | services we knew what people wanted and were looking for so we're able to tailor |
| 32:16 | our services better and of course it evolve kept evolving it's |
| 32:22 | still evolving um as we go but yeah in the beginning you know we just wanted to |
| 32:27 | get our name out there so we still did our very best work we didn't just half |
| 32:32 | it but no they all got jobs we did well yeah yeah but yes we were just just |
| 32:39 | trying to put ourselves out there as best as we could most definitely lean on |
| 32:43 | your family and friends and the network that you have to get started i think |
| 32:49 | it's a great advice you mentioned at closer to the beginning you said you've |
| 32:53 | had four different careers this is your fourth one but you also said it won't be |
| 32:57 | your last so I find that very interesting so can we go into that a |
| 33:02 | little bit because most people are afraid of change after change and |
| 33:06 | they're like I just need to know what I'm doing for the rest of my life but |
| 33:10 | this is a different thought process so I I want to I'm intrigued i want to know |
| 33:14 | more well I think definitely in any job that you do you have some transferable |
| 33:18 | skills so I think good communication skill good written skills uh being able |
| 33:23 | to give people uh feedback being able to project manage things well is is things |
| 33:29 | that you can take from one job to another and still you know have a |
| 33:34 | successful job but um for me I think the uh one of the things that I've done |
| 33:40 | recently we've done organizational coaching certification |
| 33:45 | uh and I would like to take that a bit more forward and uh and continue with my |
| 33:52 | coaching journey and also I want to go and do my masters but I think I'm going |
| 33:58 | to do my masters in organizational psychology so I've done some studies |
| 34:04 | about this already i want to take what I've done and take one step forward and |
| 34:08 | learn a bit more because there's so much you can learn this this you know the |
| 34:14 | things that you can learn will never stop it's whether you're interested in |
| 34:19 | you know all the things around you is the difference it's all so different you |
| 34:23 | know from mechanical art to scuba diving |
| 34:28 | which I love that um to you know coding to coaching like there's no they're not |
| 34:36 | linked to one another you know some some changes makes like some people might |
| 34:42 | change from I'm going to go from being a teacher to a trainer there's you can see |
| 34:50 | you can see the connection there this these are very separate very different |
| 34:56 | unique she was coaching people when she was scuba diver instructing what |
| 35:00 | actually I don't know where you were instructing you said you were on some |
| 35:03 | missions what were those scuba diving missions i'm really wonder what we uh I |
| 35:08 | think there some similar themes in everything so even working in |
| 35:13 | um digital print I was teaching people how to use the software and the tools |
| 35:19 | and then I went to scuba diving and I was teaching people how to dive |
| 35:23 | underwater and now in in coding uh and programming I've run various workshops |
| 35:32 | to teach women how to code and I've run a couple of codemmies and I like |
| 35:37 | mentoring juniors so there's always the theme of teaching and helping others and |
| 35:43 | I also think I've managed a couple of dive operations and now I've managed my |
| 35:48 | own company and my current role as well is being director of engineering so |
| 35:54 | managing uh people and managing teams so there's a few themes there that repeat |
| 35:59 | in all the things that I do and obviously it's not the same industry but |
| 36:04 | you can reapply skills that you have from one industry to another so true |
| 36:09 | this is a lot of people don't realize that or they know they just don't know |
| 36:13 | what skills they have that are transferable and a lot of people focus |
| 36:20 | on hard skills only which are the technical skills that you need to do the |
| 36:25 | job like understanding code but there are the soft skills are actually very |
| 36:30 | important and I think people don't they don't realize that they don't think it's |
| 36:34 | important they don't even necessarily put it into a resume because I want to |
| 36:38 | focus on those hard skills but even when you look at a job at every single job at |
| 36:44 | talks on those soft skills we need you to have attention to detail |
| 36:48 | interpersonal relationship skills communication you know we need you to be |
| 36:54 | flexible or work well under pressure these are the soft skills that you can |
| 36:59 | take with you anywhere in any scenario it doesn't even have to be employment it |
| 37:06 | can be outside of work and that's why when we work with our clients we're like |
| 37:10 | let's think about everything that you're doing cuz perhaps in your work you're |
| 37:15 | not managing something but outside of work maybe you are the one organizing |
| 37:21 | all the social activities you're managing the whole group you're on |
| 37:25 | WhatsApp and you're managing everything it's a skill no you're not going to put |
| 37:28 | that as a job in your resume but you can take that skill and put that skill on |
| 37:33 | your resume so I think that's um something that people might need help |
| 37:40 | though to identify those patterns and those skills |
| 37:44 | that they have so you know you're obviously very self-aware and you can |
| 37:47 | see one from another to next yeah but a lot of people can't and and that's okay |
| 37:55 | you know it's not an easy thing to do so and I think that's why people get stuck |
| 38:00 | and they're like "Okay I finally found what I'm good at i'm going to stick to |
| 38:03 | this for the rest of my career." But which is knowing Yeah which I think it |
| 38:09 | is fair and there's nothing wrong in knowing what you're good at and doing |
| 38:14 | that for you but I think for me I just try to I I enjoy learning i enjoy |
| 38:19 | learning new skills i find that if I do the same thing again and again again I |
| 38:24 | get bored so I want something of interest um I we were talking before |
| 38:30 | about remote work versus working in the office and the problem with remote work |
| 38:34 | is that people don't see you don't see you actually doing the work or seeing |
| 38:40 | the extra stuff so you do have to proactively communicate about what |
| 38:47 | you've done and what you've achieved because what you can see by research is |
| 38:52 | people that work from home get promoted less than people that work in the office |
| 38:57 | and if you do have some people that are always in the office and some people |
| 39:00 | that are always at home the people at home will usually suffer in in that |
| 39:05 | regard so they need to be conscious of that and work on communicating their |
| 39:09 | value for the rest of the company and being conscious at creating connections |
| 39:15 | with other people at work this is a really hard thing for a lot of people to |
| 39:20 | do twofold one is a lot of people aren't very good at communicating they they |
| 39:26 | will put it on their resume strong communicator but a lot of people are not |
| 39:31 | that's what I've come across they're not very good at articulating what it is |
| 39:35 | that they have done or can do and when we sit with a client it's really is |
| 39:42 | asking and peppering a lot of questions to get to the the gold the goal the |
| 39:48 | answer of what it is that they've achieved but then the second part to |
| 39:52 | this is a lot of people don't it's almost like imposter syndrome they don't |
| 39:58 | see the value in what they've done like "Oh but that was nothing nothing to talk |
| 40:02 | about you know or they they think that um yeah they just don't they don't they |
| 40:08 | don't brag." I call this humble bragging but they don't see that that was |
| 40:13 | something to discuss or they don't want to come |
| 40:16 | across as look at me look what I've done and make too much noise either that I |
| 40:21 | think are the biggest obstacles that people are facing to go out there and I |
| 40:26 | think the other side of it some people don't even realize that they need to do |
| 40:28 | that it's a woman's work for itself i have three things to say let's see if I |
| 40:33 | remember them one I I think talking about yourself is very confronting to a |
| 40:38 | lot of people it's even confronting to me so a lot of the time when I write my |
| 40:41 | CV I ask my partner to write it for me which I think maybe it's useful if you |
| 40:46 | write it for people because you know they don't feel comfortable saying that |
| 40:51 | to themselves uh this the second thing is you don't have to brag you just have |
| 40:56 | to tell people what you've done and we usually uh teach people also about |
| 41:03 | personal branding um or or sorry we teach managers about how to give |
| 41:08 | feedback to people and we say if you don't have a culture of feedback start |
| 41:12 | by giving a lot of reinforcing feedback and all you have to do is you don't have |
| 41:17 | to praise people you just need to describe what they have done in a bit |
| 41:22 | more detail so people feel seen and the third thing that um I wanted to say is |
| 41:27 | I've heard somebody say recently they were actually an HR professional that |
| 41:31 | said nobody's losing weight uh because of your career your manager doesn't lose |
| 41:38 | asleep over your career goals which means that unless you bring it up with |
| 41:44 | them if like unless you bring it up unless you work towards that nobody else |
| 41:49 | will work towards that for you there are some there are some leaders out there |
| 41:55 | that do know your goals and do try to keep it in mind they're the really |
| 42:00 | they're rare but they're the really supportive really good leaders that |
| 42:03 | actually help you get promoted but in general you're right they they're not |
| 42:08 | going to lose any sleep over where you want to be what you want to do all they |
| 42:13 | care about is that you're doing what what they need you to do for them and |
| 42:17 | that you're doing it well that's it we advocate to doing one-on- ones with your |
| 42:21 | manager or for managers to do one-on- ones with a report and a lot of time a |
| 42:26 | lot of people um a lot of people some people don't think or don't consider |
| 42:30 | one-on- ones with a manager as a useful use of their time like I need to do work |
| 42:35 | like I've got too much stuff to do but in the end of the day the one-on- ones |
| 42:39 | is your time with your manager to work on your career development or your |
| 42:44 | professional development on what you need for work on getting context on |
| 42:49 | getting feedback to improve how you work so owning that relationship with your |
| 42:55 | manager and building that relationship is super useful but not but not only |
| 43:00 | that uh we advocate to do one-on- ons with other key stakeholders in the |
| 43:06 | business just to put again to make the relationship personal so people know you |
| 43:14 | so people know what you want so people can sponsor you when they know oh I have |
| 43:19 | this project coming up I know that Tash was interested in learning that |
| 43:23 | technology or I know that Tash is really good at that maybe when this happens you |
| 43:28 | we should put tash on you know on that project and that only happens when you |
| 43:34 | make that personal connections with other people as well i love that it must |
| 43:38 | also make for a much more enjoyable working |
| 43:42 | environment as it's important that's also is there's a whole lot that's |
| 43:48 | important it's the projects you do and the career progression you get but it's |
| 43:52 | also where you do it and with whom you're doing it with is just as |
| 43:58 | important cuz if you is it the wrong environment the wrong people doesn't |
| 44:02 | matter how hard or how great these projects are it's going to pull you down |
| 44:08 | and it's going to make you feel that maybe you're in the wrong industry or in |
| 44:13 | doing the wrong things where it's not that it's just the environment that's |
| 44:19 | wrong so then that's the hard part because I think what you're doing is not |
| 44:25 | common it should be a lot more common what you're doing is wonderful i wish |
| 44:30 | more companies adopted that kind of culture the thing about culture is that |
| 44:37 | it's there whether you do something about it or not but if you want to have |
| 44:41 | a healthy culture and you need to be again proactive and conscious about you |
| 44:47 | know what you want to see yeah you you need to ensure that everyone's |
| 44:52 | understanding the concept understanding what you want as a culture and that |
| 44:57 | people are working together to develop that especially you know I've seen |
| 45:01 | businesses businesses where they've decided to change so they've gone |
| 45:08 | through a bit of a change they wanted to reshape what they're doing change the |
| 45:12 | culture within the environment and meaning new values new mission all of |
| 45:19 | that and that's hard work that's really hard work to then get people especially |
| 45:26 | employers that employees sorry that have been there for a long time to get them |
| 45:31 | to all adapt to this new way so if it's a good shift it's much more easily |
| 45:38 | adaptable but if you've been in a negative environment for a while and |
| 45:43 | people are used to that it's hard to become positive and it's strange but |
| 45:48 | there's been studies on this it's so much easier to have a negative mindset |
| 45:53 | than it is to have a positive mindset so doing those things and being the |
| 45:58 | standout like you were saying earlier of you focus on your own self you go and |
| 46:03 | talk to the stakeholders and have those one-on- ons it doesn't really matter |
| 46:07 | what's happening around you cuz like you said culture is going to happen whether |
| 46:10 | you work on it or not so creating your own culture and your little bubble and |
| 46:15 | just being who you want to be and how you want to be and not which is hard but |
| 46:19 | not allowing the rest to affect you is really a skill to develop for everyone |
| 46:26 | i've worked um in a company where the culture was not the best and it wasn't |
| 46:34 | the worst I've worked in but it was not the best and I could tell that a lot of |
| 46:38 | people were not happy and I think they wanted a change and so I I'm not I'm a |
| 46:44 | HR generalist i'm not a people and culture um that's not something that is |
| 46:49 | my strongest skill i'll be honest with you |
| 46:52 | but I did go in and come up with a plan and changing the culture and I thought |
| 46:57 | and maybe it's naive I don't know but I thought you know um let's get more |
| 47:00 | involved as a company with charity events and then let's do uh bonding |
| 47:06 | activities and things like you know just it's pancake day so we celebrate let's |
| 47:12 | have make pancakes and people were there for the food they loved the food but |
| 47:17 | then they was like ah what's the point of this why do we have to do this like |
| 47:21 | you No you don't have to but let's let's get together and let's tell jokes and |
| 47:26 | have some pancakes and then go back to work and doesn't it break up the day |
| 47:30 | isn't it nice isn't it nice that we all together departments getting to know |
| 47:34 | each other cuz the departments are very separate and no one really spoke there |
| 47:40 | was huge divide between the departments and you know I did try to make an effort |
| 47:46 | but I could tell that um there was still a lot of resistance and in the end I had |
| 47:51 | to take a whole department um which was the people in the warehouse like the the |
| 47:56 | floor and tell them that it was not okay to take a nap in the middle of the day |
| 48:02 | and that we could see them behind those um planks of wood lying there that it |
| 48:10 | was not okay and that we can see them in the car snoozing and they're looking at |
| 48:15 | me like grown men i didn't think that that was ever a speech I had to deliver |
| 48:21 | to grown men but yeah apparently yeah you know that will not work in some |
| 48:27 | Mediterranean countries when they have an afternoon siesta the siesta |
| 48:32 | uh yeah we're in Australia people yes look I'm all for after I love a good |
| 48:38 | afternoon nap i think there is studies shown that having a 20 minute nap and |
| 48:45 | don't quite mean any of this i It is fact this is a fact i just put a comment |
| 48:50 | put Google it and put a comment in i don't know the exact facts of numbers |
| 48:55 | but it does show like I think it's 20 minutes increases the productivity like |
| 49:00 | dramatically i'm not going to say the percentage cuz I don't know the numbers |
| 49:03 | but it does increase for me i know that uh sometimes a nap helps me to reset |
| 49:10 | everything talking about connections between people um every time we've done |
| 49:15 | an offsite in a company that I've workedwith the amount of chithat in Slack |
| 49:20 | afterwards just went through the roof because people [ __ ] um um relate to |
| 49:28 | other people or people when other people give feedback at work do not take that |
| 49:33 | as uh as as something that you're trying to |
| 49:37 | hurt me as a ne too negative so it I think meeting people in person is useful |
| 49:43 | uh one of the things that I liked in aprevious work is we were working in an |
| 49:48 | office and every day at 300 p.m we would go for a cookie walk and a cookie walk |
| 49:54 | was we just went as a group and we stretch our legs and we did a walk |
| 49:58 | around and like a block around the office and we'll stop at the coffee shop |
| 50:03 | and they had a really good cookies and you know if you wanted to buy a coffee |
| 50:08 | you buy tea or we'll buy a cookie and then we'll continue on the way back to |
| 50:12 | the office and that will be 15 minutes of stretching your legs getting away |
| 50:16 | from the screen and reconnecting with people asking them about work learning |
| 50:21 | about their work helping themselves problems and making a much better |
| 50:26 | connection in Sweden this is called Fica and this is exactly that like stopping |
| 50:33 | and having a coffee and a pastry and something sweet with friends or |
| 50:38 | colleagues i love that i love I love pastries i love it i like going for |
| 50:44 | walks too i mean all the things I love and a nice chat sounds great i can |
| 50:48 | imagine builds the rejuvenated I know like even yesterday like I I'm |
| 50:56 | the type of person that can get stuck sitting at the desk really absorbed into |
| 51:02 | the work and then by the time I finished my brain is just not there and so yeah |
| 51:07 | yesterday I I decided it was about 2 2:30 like no I'm going for a walk i'm |
| 51:14 | not going to just sit here all day and not only did I reach my step count which |
| 51:19 | is very rare but I I did feel better i went for a walk i got some fresh air |
| 51:24 | it's summer now well almost summer so the it it did make a big difference and |
| 51:31 | I'm healthier for it as well so it's Yeah there's great value in all of that |
| 51:37 | but I love it i want to work for you now well we are hiring if you want |
| 51:43 | i'm just not very good at code not good at all maybe they're hiring |
| 51:49 | coaches coaches i can I'm actually I am hiring developers but |
| 51:55 | developers that's good to know for anyone who's looking and looking for a |
| 51:59 | great mentor i think you're you're it so yeah so I guess I'd like to ask a final |
| 52:08 | question going through your career of so many different things and international |
| 52:15 | and interstate moves and everything what advice would you give your 18year-old |
| 52:19 | self i I think I can give a couple maybe uh and one of them we were talking about |
| 52:24 | change i think change is a constant change will always happen like I tried |
| 52:29 | to have my 10 year plan and nothing worked and then I decided that I'm not |
| 52:33 | going to have any plans and whatever happens happens and probably whatever |
| 52:37 | surprise is going to be a better surprise but I do think you need to have |
| 52:41 | an idea of where you want to go and not be afraid of change and when you have a |
| 52:45 | big challenge try and break it down to small steps and where do I start with my |
| 52:50 | first step and I take the next step and then take the next step |
| 52:55 | um and and I think my second piece of advice is make a connection with someone |
| 53:02 | like get to know people make it valuable and personal and because those people in |
| 53:10 | the end of the day you leave the work but you can keep the people they can |
| 53:15 | still be your friends afterwards |
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