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Struggling with Behavioural Questions in Interviews?
They are the most common and also the toughest for many candidates.
This free E-book shows you how to answer them with confidence.
They are the most common and also the toughest for many candidates.
This free E-book shows you how to answer them with confidence.
Career Reshaped Ep. 18: How to Leverage Support Network for Career Success
Navigating a career isn’t always straightforward—especially when you’re dealing with cultural challenges, changing industries, or questioning whether you’re even on the right path. But what if the secret to career resilience lies in leaning into your support network and staying true to what lights you up?
In this episode of Career Reshaped, you’ll hear from Leah Evans, a digital product manager with experience across finance, professional services, and e-commerce. Leah opens up about the hurdles she’s faced, the mindset shifts that helped her adapt, and how her support network helped her stay grounded through some tough professional chapters.
We’ll dive into how culture can make or break your work experience, why transferable skills matter more than you think, and what to do when you’re tempted to give up on the path you’re passionate about. Plus, Leah shares what helped her push through a toxic workplace, the surprising power of creativity and physical movement, and why your identity goes far beyond your job title.
If you’ve ever felt stuck, isolated, or unsure whether to keep going—this episode is for you.
Discussion Overview
Overcoming career challenges often involves patience and self-compassion. Embracing uncertainty as part of the process and learning from setbacks helps build resilience and clarity for the next steps.
Staying informed about trends and observing workplace culture closely can guide how to adapt. Balancing flexibility with authenticity ensures you remain true to yourself while embracing change..
A strong support system offers encouragement, advice, and perspective. Trusted colleagues, mentors, or friends can help sustain motivation and provide guidance during difficult times.
Cultivating interests outside of work fosters balance and well-being. Developing a sense of self beyond your job reduces burnout and enriches life overall.
Viewing setbacks as temporary pauses rather than failures allows space for reflection and growth. These moments provide valuable lessons that can refine your direction.
Passion drives commitment and satisfaction. When work aligns with your interests and values, it fuels perseverance through challenges.
Confidence grows from preparation, understanding your strengths, and viewing rejection as a chance to learn. Seeking feedback and practicing self-awareness also boost assurance.
Curiosity, mentorship, and openness to diverse experiences help lay a strong foundation. Being proactive about learning and connections supports long-term growth.
Podcast Transcript:
| Time | Transcript |
|---|---|
| 00:00 | Hi and welcome to another episode of Career Reshaped, I'm your host Natasha |
| 00:04 | And today I am welcoming Leah Evans to the channel... |
| 00:09 | manager and a previous client of ours leah has experience in financial |
| 00:14 | services professional services and e-commerce she has a passion for working |
| 00:18 | with diverse talent to build products that solve real user problems hey it's |
| 00:25 | Natasha and I'm Pauline we're so pumped to bring you even bigger and better |
| 00:29 | stuff this season 2 of Career Reshaped we've got new guests free master classes |
| 00:35 | and all the good vibes you'll only find here so don't forget to hit subscribe |
| 00:40 | follow us on Spotify at Careershaped and check us out on Instagram at |
| 00:45 | my.career.angels hi Leah thanks for joining hello so I |
| 00:50 | read your lovely intro and it's really exciting to have someone in the digital |
| 00:55 | space for um product management so I'd love to know how you got into it how it |
| 01:00 | all started for you yeah so I started at Westpak when I was quite young so I was |
| 01:04 | lucky enough to get a cadet ship with them so I had the opportunity to work in |
| 01:09 | quite a few different teams uh working as like an associate uh business analyst |
| 01:14 | i was in a strategy team at some point and that's when I came across product |
| 01:20 | and I absolutely fell in love with it i was working in the mobile banking space |
| 01:25 | and it was amazing because compared to the other roles that I had I just felt |
| 01:30 | like it was very fulfilling working with a lot of different people and I actually |
| 01:34 | had a tangible outcome to all the work that I was doing so that's kind of when |
| 01:38 | it started i'd say I was I might not say my age but I'd say it was back |
| 01:44 | in 2020 i'd say 20 no 2019 yes a few years ago um but yeah since then I've |
| 01:52 | loved it and um I've worked at a few other companies since then working in |
| 01:56 | product and yeah really happy that that's what I'm doing now awesome so I I |
| 02:01 | will have a question regarding what you're doing more recently but you |
| 02:04 | mentioned the cadet ship so I'm actually interested to know is this something you |
| 02:08 | would suggest to people coming out of uni to do something like that a cadet |
| 02:12 | ship or a graduate program oh 100% i think the thing that happens is that |
| 02:17 | when you're in high school the main focus is okay making sure you get a good |
| 02:20 | ATAR and then getting into the uni you want doing the course you want but the |
| 02:24 | unfortunate thing is a lot of people don't realize that what employers are |
| 02:27 | looking for even at such a young age is actual experience and it is really hard |
| 02:32 | when you you know try to apply for roles after you finish uni when you don't have |
| 02:37 | any kind of really directly relatable experience so I think yeah any day I |
| 02:43 | would say go for cadet chips if you are at that point um and even like things |
| 02:47 | like co-ops as well anything that gives you a little bit of experience and I |
| 02:52 | actually started doing this in high school because I was just very excited |
| 02:56 | to get experience and which you know it's a little bit cringeworthy but I |
| 03:01 | would like actively approach people at like career fairs and things like that |
| 03:05 | and just ask them like would you be happy if I came and did a week or even |
| 03:09 | two of work experience with you and that wasn't part of the normal high school |
| 03:13 | program i just wanted to not part of the normal high school student mindset at |
| 03:17 | all it's not and but that's amazing it is and the thing is for me initially I |
| 03:22 | used to be obsessed with law and order so I wanted to become a lawyer so I |
| 03:26 | actually went to a few law firms just offering my free labor not that I could |
| 03:31 | really do much but just so I could see okay what is it actually like working as |
| 03:36 | a lawyer um and that actually gave me the insight that made me realize oh I |
| 03:40 | don't really want to do this and that's when I pivoted to something different |
| 03:45 | did some research and it was what yeah what interested me at the time and then |
| 03:50 | I did more I love that yeah I love that you did the the volunteering and yes TV |
| 03:56 | shows can be um really persuade you to do certain things i I also like I like |
| 04:02 | criminal minds um and the profilers not that I could ever do that or see those |
| 04:07 | crime scenes but um they really do persuade people and I love that you |
| 04:12 | offered your time to volunteer it's actually something we tell a lot of our |
| 04:15 | clients to do that if you're not sure if you're going to love it volunteer just |
| 04:21 | do it once a week see if it's something you enjoy and I love that you had that |
| 04:26 | mindset so early on it's it is rare but it's fantastic that you do that i did it |
| 04:33 | actually when I was in high school i thought I wanted to be a primary school |
| 04:36 | teacher so I went outside of the school and I volunteered to be in a classroom i |
| 04:42 | think it was for about a week i loved it i didn't end up doing teaching clearly |
| 04:45 | i'm I'm teaching people now i'm teaching adults in a different way but it really |
| 04:50 | gives a really solid insight so good on you for actually doing that impressive |
| 04:56 | fast forward to where we are now so I know that you had a few hurdles to |
| 05:02 | overcome and a few challenges did you want to tell us a little bit about that |
| 05:05 | generally in my career there's been a few i guess the big thing was kind of |
| 05:10 | figuring out what it was that I wanted to do and that was obviously a little |
| 05:14 | bit earlier on part of the cadet ship and what I did to sort of overcome that |
| 05:19 | was speaking to a lot of people i asked quite a few people in spaces that I |
| 05:24 | thought seemed interesting and people who who had roles and positions where I |
| 05:27 | was like "Oh that could be something that I would love to do one day." Just |
| 05:30 | asking for advice getting as much information as I could so I could really |
| 05:34 | make an informed decision um so that was like a big one in the beginning for me |
| 05:38 | because I feel like there's a lot of pressure to decide what it is that you |
| 05:41 | want to do um but I guess yeah I don't know if we want to go specifically into |
| 05:48 | roles i love that you knew that it's hard to decide exactly what you want to |
| 05:53 | do coming out of high school but you had that cadet ship which really opened the |
| 05:57 | door for a lot of different things so you knew that digital space was what you |
| 06:01 | wanted um and I know that you enjoyed your time in the financial sector but |
| 06:05 | you moved on from there so moving on from there you went to do something else |
| 06:09 | and you were in a completely different space so I guess I'd like to know how |
| 06:15 | transitioning to uh something completely different went for you and how um maybe |
| 06:21 | culture had an impact on your decision-m from there on yeah so I think in terms |
| 06:26 | of like because I did change I have changed industries quite a few times um |
| 06:30 | I do know a lot of other product managers do tend to stay within the same |
| 06:33 | sort of space but for me the way I see it and I don't know I don't know if this |
| 06:37 | is applicable to other careers i'm sure there's some that could also relate to |
| 06:41 | this but the skills are very transferable uh the difference when you |
| 06:44 | do switch careers is mainly in terms of like the I'd say like the jargon that |
| 06:49 | people use understanding the context of the product um even the product itself |
| 06:52 | will change quite a lot but I personally do really enjoy that challenge and I did |
| 06:56 | want to push myself more get that growth so I think having that mindset really |
| 07:01 | did help with any challenges that did come up as part of that switch between |
| 07:05 | industries um on a culture front I think culture is such an important thing in |
| 07:11 | any company or team it really does make or break the experience for you and I've |
| 07:16 | been lucky enough in most of my roles to have been placed in really good teams |
| 07:20 | very supportive ones um obviously that doesn't happen all the time and it is |
| 07:24 | really hard when you're applying for a role to really get a gauge of the |
| 07:27 | culture because that is also subject to change once you do start in a role |
| 07:32 | people move around management changes um so yeah I think for me definitely like |
| 07:37 | navigating some cultural challenges has come up um in the past few years and it |
| 07:43 | was a interesting learning experience but I think something that you know it |
| 07:48 | was it's an important part of career development learning how to adapt to |
| 07:51 | different cultures so what techniques did you um initiate for yourself to try |
| 07:56 | to adapt and try to you know push through any boundaries or any culture |
| 08:00 | blockages i think the first thing was just having an open mind um and trying |
| 08:05 | not to hold on too much to I guess like previous habits and previous like even |
| 08:09 | ways of socializing that I would have in other companies and other industries |
| 08:13 | when I did start a new role and I do that always because every company and |
| 08:18 | even industry is quite different um that that would be the main thing and I think |
| 08:22 | even just connecting with as many people as you can just so that you can |
| 08:26 | understand how things work um yeah how people connect I think is a really big |
| 08:31 | thing as well so when you're saying changing the way you socialize obviously |
| 08:35 | being adaptable is good and when you look at most job ads they want someone |
| 08:40 | who is adaptable i guess with your experience um and the difficult |
| 08:45 | environments that you have had in the past would you say that that is |
| 08:50 | completely fair to completely change the way you socialize with people and |
| 08:54 | interact with people or should there be a balance and some I guess uh |
| 08:58 | accountability from the business as well it's definitely a mix of both i think |
| 09:02 | there's only so far anyone can go when it comes to adapting to a particular |
| 09:07 | culture um but I do think yeah you've got your differences and I think that's |
| 09:11 | where you do need to be a little bit adaptable but in terms of whether it's a |
| 09:15 | healthy culture or an unhealthy culture that's I I think for anyone it's |
| 09:19 | important to obviously be able to you know because you can't always just leave |
| 09:23 | a role for example if the role is you know not let's say healthy from a |
| 09:28 | cultural perspective so you do need to kind of adapt a little bit um just tide |
| 09:32 | you over but at the same time I definitely do think it's up to companies |
| 09:35 | to really make sure that the culture that they are actually I guess it is |
| 09:40 | realistic and if it's not then taking some active action to make sure that |
| 09:45 | people are embracing like a positive work culture because it's the one reason |
| 09:50 | and I've seen this so many times when people leave a role it's never really |
| 09:53 | because of the work uh the culture I think 90% of the time is the reason why |
| 09:57 | people will leave so you mentioned uh just before about knowing the culture |
| 10:02 | that you're kind of stepping into so you coming from a few different industries |
| 10:08 | were there any techniques that you looked into like maybe during the |
| 10:11 | interview process or when researching the companies to try to figure out |
| 10:15 | whether it would be a positive culture or one that you could you don't |
| 10:20 | necessarily have to adapt so much to i think the one thing would be first if I |
| 10:24 | knew people at that company I would definitely reach out to them that's not |
| 10:29 | always an option so for me one thing that I found was it gave quite a good |
| 10:39 | insight into the actual values and the culture of a company was looking at |
| 10:37 | their like values the ones that they do actually post because there were some |
| 10:42 | that I noticed were quite generic and they just didn't feel very genuine but |
| 10:47 | there were also quite a few others where I guess they were more genuine i can't |
| 10:51 | think of a a better You can Yeah you can tell it wasn't just a chat to UTP but |
| 10:55 | they actually wrote it themselves exactly and you would also see sort of |
| 10:58 | for example like the social events they would organize um groups and committees |
| 11:02 | that they had in place that would actually you know it it kind of aligned |
| 11:05 | with the the corporate culture that it looked like they were saying that they |
| 11:08 | had so if there's ways of like getting that insight I think that really does |
| 11:12 | help getting an insight into the company as well and what it's actually like to |
| 11:16 | work there but during the interview itself it's always quite hard i think |
| 11:19 | the first thing is that the people are a great reflection of the culture but |
| 11:23 | there's only so much you can see during interview um but I guess there are |
| 11:28 | certain questions that I would ask uh in terms of uh whether the team like comes |
| 11:32 | in for example if everyone's in the same sort of office space just things like |
| 11:36 | that which do go a long way and actually firstly make sure there is a culture and |
| 11:40 | secondly how that culture actually works yeah those are good definitely really |
| 11:44 | good questions um there are a bunch of questions that can be asked in an |
| 11:48 | interview and understanding the team is definitely one understanding the |
| 11:53 | management style obviously in an interview they may not tell you |
| 11:57 | everything especially if they know themselves or the there are issues but |
| 12:01 | then you look at the body language and whether they shift a little bit too much |
| 12:06 | in their seat or their voice maybe goes a little bit |
| 12:09 | higher the the indication of some little fibs there so you mentioned seeing if |
| 12:16 | you know somebody that works in the organization and I think that is a great |
| 12:20 | piece of advice to give to people if you go on LinkedIn and you can see that you |
| 12:25 | have mutual connections even if you don't know the person really well but |
| 12:30 | you are actually connected to them on LinkedIn or you have mutual friends you |
| 12:35 | can reach out and say hey I noticed that we have um this friend in common i also |
| 12:40 | noticed that you're working at so and so could you tell me a bit about it there's |
| 12:44 | a job opening and I'm interested so I think that's definitely a great way of |
| 12:50 | trying to get insider gossip about the organization and to really know whether |
| 12:55 | it's worth it and anyone that's happy will be really happy to share the |
| 13:00 | information and the same goes the opposite way if someone's really unhappy |
| 13:04 | they'll tell you as well and be even more brutally honest about it so that's |
| 13:09 | really good advice to give now you also did mention that not everyone can leave |
| 13:15 | a place that they're working at if the it is a toxic work environment but they |
| 13:20 | can't just get up and go they need to find other employment first or they're |
| 13:24 | in a situation where they can't leave they have too many expenses in life and |
| 13:30 | that does happen and I guess I know that what happened for you when you um |
| 13:36 | reached out to us you were in a point where you did want to move on from where |
| 13:40 | you were going but you couldn't just get up and go cuz you had your expenses and |
| 13:45 | everything like that so what did you do in the workplace but also outside of the |
| 13:50 | workplace to try to I guess keep your mental health a little bit more balanced |
| 13:57 | i think the big thing was definitely having a support network |
| 14:01 | because you know whether the culture is good or bad it's something that you |
| 14:05 | always need and especially when things aren't going too well um for me the one |
| 14:10 | thing that really really helped was having a really great support network um |
| 14:14 | because that particular company I was at the people there were a lot of people |
| 14:17 | who were great um and having that really really did help because I think feeling |
| 14:21 | isolated when you're in a situation like that just makes things so much worse so |
| 14:27 | if you don't have a support network like definitely try to build one because yeah |
| 14:30 | it's not always easy to just get up and go um and I think also from a |
| 14:34 | professional perspective like sometimes it you know it just doesn't it isn't the |
| 14:38 | best option if you've only been at a certain role for a small while to just |
| 14:42 | leave um but yeah definitely the support network went a long way uh in terms of |
| 14:47 | like mental health and just making sure I stayed positive uh I think it was also |
| 14:52 | looking at doing things outside of work as well that would kind of you know um |
| 14:58 | almost counteract some things that were |
| 15:01 | happening at work uh so for me personally like I'm fairly creative so I |
| 15:06 | would do things like painting um spending time with like friends family |
| 15:10 | uh even like getting into sports as well well not really sports i don't do sport |
| 15:14 | actually i don't know why I but like physical activity so um going to the |
| 15:20 | walking sport yeah same thing um same thing totally for me it is exactly but |
| 15:26 | things that are just completely removed from that environment that get your body |
| 15:29 | physically into a different state state just so that you refresh and the one |
| 15:34 | thing as well is like if things aren't going well in like a certain areas at |
| 15:37 | the time for me was uh professionally because the culture was just yeah I |
| 15:42 | would say fairly toxic and not just for me but for quite a few other people as |
| 15:45 | well when things aren't going well in a certain areas so for me at the time it |
| 15:48 | was with work looking at other areas in your life because your identity isn't |
| 15:52 | just based in you know how well you're doing at work or even how you're being |
| 15:56 | received at work and what that environment is like so for me it was |
| 16:00 | about obviously still making sure I was doing the best job I could do in that |
| 16:04 | circumstance but looking at other parts of my life like with my friends with my |
| 16:07 | family um the creative things um you know not sport but physical some kind of |
| 16:13 | physical activity like going for runs and things like that and um when I |
| 16:17 | started seeing those areas of my life sort of going well and investing time in |
| 16:21 | that it made work and kind of what was happening at the time which I couldn't |
| 16:25 | control seem a little bit less intense I Yes absolutely and I love what you said |
| 16:31 | about identity and we've mentioned this before on this show that a person's |
| 16:36 | identity is huge and it's how they see themselves and you've got if you go |
| 16:41 | through the whole psychology of the id and the ego and and all of that um but |
| 16:46 | when people think of themselves first think about their career and it becomes |
| 16:51 | a huge part of their life and they and they go oh and tell me about yourself |
| 16:55 | and they'll say oh well I'm a career coach but that's not all of who I am you |
| 17:00 | know a digital product manager is not all of who you are so it's really good |
| 17:05 | that you were able to disconnect and see that well that's not my whole identity |
| 17:10 | my identity is my the rest of my life it's my friends it's my family it's the |
| 17:15 | things that I enjoy doing outside of work and personally I think that that's |
| 17:20 | what people need to focus on more especially for their mental health work |
| 17:23 | is work and yes we need the money and all of that and ideally you wake up |
| 17:31 | happy to go to work you know you love what you do like with with you Leah you |
| 17:35 | know you love the actual work you love what you do you love the customer |
| 17:40 | service you love creating the platforms and making it easier for the users and I |
| 17:46 | think that's great but when the culture or the toxic environment starts to seep |
| 17:50 | in there's only so much passion for the work that you can keep holding on to and |
| 17:55 | so stepping out of that and seeing okay well I have this in my life and that and |
| 18:00 | for some people it's their kids or their dog or their cat or it is their morning |
| 18:05 | walks along the beach and that just resets them for the day so it's really |
| 18:09 | good that you were able to get to that point uh after being feeling isolated |
| 18:15 | like you said you were feeling so it's really good that you were able to do |
| 18:19 | that and I think that's really good advice for anyone listening to step back |
| 18:23 | for a second and look at what else you have in your life and if you feel that |
| 18:29 | you are alone just like you said Leah get that support network go find it make |
| 18:34 | one if you don't have your little village start with one person that's all |
| 18:39 | you need to begin with one person it makes such a difference and the thing is |
| 18:42 | most people are willing to help as well and I think that's something generally |
| 18:46 | that I found is that if you're not in a good position or even if you just for |
| 18:50 | example need some advice or some guidance uh people are from my |
| 18:55 | experience at least are mostly more than happy to share their insights help out |
| 18:59 | where they can um and yeah it does make a difference and like you said even if |
| 19:03 | it's just one person that that's huge um but yeah I think definitely reaching out |
| 19:08 | to people cuz people can't help you unless they know that you know you're |
| 19:11 | not in a good place so I think it's that almost courage to be vulnerable |
| 19:17 | sometimes and I think it's it can be difficult and a bit trickier at work uh |
| 19:21 | because yeah there are certain lines but at the same time and I'm just using like |
| 19:25 | being in a very toxic workplace as an example um but generally with those kind |
| 19:30 | of situations there are other people who also know that that environment is toxic |
| 19:35 | whether it's at the company level or if it's at the team level so they're happy |
| 19:39 | to help and I think that for me um yeah it I think without having |
| 19:44 | that it would have been extremely difficult for me so I'm very grateful to |
| 19:48 | the people who were actually able to yeah just have a chat have a coffee |
| 19:52 | because it it just makes a world of difference yeah that's that's really |
| 19:55 | good and I'm glad you had those people in your life before we get into the |
| 19:58 | nitty-gritty of this topic we just wanted to check in and say that if you |
| 20:02 | believe that you need some assistance and that we could help you reach out to |
| 20:07 | us today check out our website join our newsletter we'd love to be in touch we |
| 20:11 | wanted to quickly mention that subscribing to the podcast is the best |
| 20:15 | way to support the show and ensure you never miss an episode it's super easy |
| 20:22 | just click the subscribe button whenever you're listening thanks for tuning in so |
| 20:27 | it's really good to know what you did outside of the working environment with |
| 20:31 | your support network and everything um I'd like to also know how you manage the |
| 20:36 | dayto-day so you know on any given day something would happen and there'd be an |
| 20:40 | incident what techniques or what did you do to get through the rest of the day um |
| 20:45 | I guess it depended on what the issue was but generally for me my main focus |
| 20:50 | at work is the work like obviously the people are a big part of that but at the |
| 20:55 | same time when it came to things that I would say would take away from my |
| 21:00 | ability to do my job I would try to resolve them so it was a lot easier if |
| 21:05 | it wasn't in person but if it was over Zoom or whatnot or Microsoft Teams then |
| 21:10 | I would just give the person a call and try to resolve it i think with and this |
| 21:13 | is just generally with any kind of conflict um coming at it with empathy |
| 21:18 | and understanding why the person is saying things that they are and |
| 21:23 | understanding what position they're coming from really does go a long way in |
| 21:26 | just mitigating issues then you actually you actually appreciate why they're |
| 21:31 | saying the things that they are and it actually helps you give better responses |
| 21:33 | and resolve a lot of um conflicts I would say so for me I would try to |
| 21:40 | resolve conflicts fairly quickly whenever they did come up using that |
| 21:44 | approach um but also just reminding myself like at at the end of the day |
| 21:47 | it's not about me it's about the work that I'm doing so just focusing on doing |
| 21:53 | that and that was essentially what I did which helped me to still actually |
| 21:58 | deliver quite a lot um even when the culture wasn't always 100% and that that |
| 22:03 | seemed to work for me i'm not sure if that would work for others but no I |
| 22:06 | think that's great advice i think dealing with it in the moment is great |
| 22:10 | obviously like you said it depends what the situation was um but if it's just a |
| 22:15 | general conflict dealing with it straight away is always good and this is |
| 22:20 | also what we tell people try to understand their perspective so have a |
| 22:24 | conversation and you're right in person is so much easier because especially if |
| 22:28 | it's over email they can be miscommunication they can misread what |
| 22:32 | you've written um which happens often people read things in a particular tone |
| 22:38 | even though they may not have been a tone so definitely at least picking up |
| 22:42 | the phone so they can hear you is always good so it's really good that you were |
| 22:47 | able to do that for some of your situations to deal with that and then |
| 22:52 | focus on the work um and still produce like you said really good quality work |
| 22:57 | which is some people struggle to do that especially when they're in a negative |
| 23:04 | environment not just externally but like internally like in their head um it does |
| 23:09 | affect your work so it was good that you were able to at least separate that to a |
| 23:13 | point to still be passionate about what you're doing |
| 23:17 | for the end user as well and I think that comes down to actually enjoying |
| 23:20 | your job as well that's why I think going back to what we were discussing |
| 23:24 | before it is so important to make sure you actually like your job make sure |
| 23:28 | it's fulfilling for you because you're not always going to end up in a perfect |
| 23:32 | culture like it's it's just not reasonable to be expecting that um but |
| 23:37 | it does get you through and that for me it definitely played such a big role as |
| 23:41 | well because I could at least get some satisfaction from the work I was doing |
| 23:44 | the results I was seeing and all the other positive relationships I had with |
| 23:48 | people as well so going back to when you said that you have gone to a few |
| 23:53 | different industries and that you know that you've got those transferable |
| 23:59 | skills not a lot of people realize that and like you said before some people |
| 24:03 | just get stuck in the same industry or they think that they need to be in the |
| 24:06 | same industry noticing your transferable skills and then going from industry to |
| 24:10 | industry were there any big issues with that or could you foresee any issues |
| 24:17 | changing industries and what would you tell people when focusing on their |
| 24:22 | transferable skills to not be afraid I guess to try a different industry in the |
| 24:27 | digital product management field yeah so I think there's two parts to it cuz on |
| 24:31 | on the one hand having like experience working with different industries is |
| 24:35 | great if you want to be more of a generalist and this is just speaking |
| 24:38 | within product management and there are definitely companies that actually |
| 24:41 | prefer that like seeing people who can you know adapt their skills in different |
| 24:45 | contexts but at the same time I think what you're missing out on is sort of |
| 24:50 | stepping into more specialized product roles and I do think that for me like |
| 24:55 | moving forward and generally other product managers and people in other |
| 24:58 | roles as who are doing that it can make it look harder if you do want to sort of |
| 25:03 | get into a particular industry because quite a few of them do expect you to |
| 25:08 | like potentially come in at a lower level and I did actually have this |
| 25:11 | experience once when I was applying for a role in a completely different |
| 25:15 | industry it was I think ops and logistics from memory and that even |
| 25:19 | though I was a product manager at this point for quite a few years they wanted |
| 25:23 | me to come in as a product analyst uh just that I could really understand the |
| 25:27 | industry and learn how things work before stepping into that role so I do |
| 25:31 | think yeah if you're kind of happy to sort of I guess temporarily sacrifice |
| 25:36 | seniority to try a different industry that's fine but if you don't um then |
| 25:41 | that could be a bit of an issue but I guess constantly changing industries is |
| 25:46 | like on that extreme is probably not a good thing as well like I think it is |
| 25:49 | good to sort of have like build some experience as well um for me the only |
| 25:53 | reason it's happened is because in terms of the roles that came up and the ones |
| 25:57 | that suited me the best it just so happened that they're all in quite |
| 26:00 | different industries but in saying that like at the moment I am in professional |
| 26:04 | services but in the future if another role comes up a different one still in |
| 26:08 | professional services I definitely wouldn't say no to that just because |
| 26:11 | it's in the same industry if that makes sense like I'd be more to continue |
| 26:15 | working in the space yeah and I like what you said about being open to maybe |
| 26:20 | taking a step down because it's not yeah temporarily it's a step down but really |
| 26:25 | it will then become a leap forward because you learn the new industry and |
| 26:30 | you already have the experience of a senior role you'll quickly get promoted |
| 26:35 | it just it's fact if the company doesn't quickly promote you though then that's |
| 26:40 | something with the company that's not on you so I feel that it does happen where |
| 26:45 | people think "Okay yeah I'll take a lower level position to be able to take |
| 26:51 | those steps up but then they don't get promoted and they think that it's |
| 26:54 | something that they've done." It's not more often than not it's not it's just |
| 26:59 | the company trying to hold you in that position at a lower salary knowing that |
| 27:04 | you can do more giving you more and that's where your negotiation and your |
| 27:08 | understanding of when it is time to leave kicks in so this is some advice |
| 27:12 | for anyone listening that's in that situation you don't deserve to be in |
| 27:16 | that situation move on just I can help you move on |
| 27:22 | um so with everything else that you were doing I know that you also had some |
| 27:29 | pressures or some guidance to even perhaps change your career completely |
| 27:36 | into something else and it was you know transferable for your skills as well but |
| 27:41 | you stuck to your guns and your passions so how did that feel when people around |
| 27:46 | you are trying to tell you maybe this isn't the right path for you or you |
| 27:51 | can't do your job well maybe do something else how did Yeah how did that |
| 27:55 | make you feel and how did you get through that well for me I'm quite |
| 27:58 | stubborn so and especially when it comes to something as important as your career |
| 28:03 | and obviously like I had gone through quite a few different experiences to |
| 28:07 | figure out what it was that I actually wanted to do and that's why for me |
| 28:11 | product has a very special place in my heart because I just really do enjoy it |
| 28:14 | it just ticks all the boxes for me but uh yeah there there have been a few |
| 28:19 | situations but particularly when uh I was in a certain environment that was |
| 28:25 | quite toxic where I had people quite close to me saying look you've been |
| 28:29 | trying to look for a new role for a while now nothing's really come up um |
| 28:33 | maybe you should actually completely reconsider what career you're doing um |
| 28:36 | and looking into jobs that are a little bit more marketable uh which was a valid |
| 28:41 | point and obviously they were just coming from a place of concern because |
| 28:45 | yeah being in an unhealthy workplace is not good for anyone and especially if |
| 28:48 | you're there for a while as well it really does start to take a toll but at |
| 28:53 | the same time for me I didn't want to just you know I wasn't I wasn't at that |
| 28:57 | point where I wanted to just completely throw away everything I'd spent years |
| 29:02 | working on just for some I guess temporary relief almost so that's why I |
| 29:08 | just decided to keep looking and it actually turned out that the reason why |
| 29:12 | I wasn't you know successful in applying to different roles was because the way I |
| 29:15 | was doing it was quite wrong um in terms of my CV and even with interviews and |
| 29:21 | that's obviously when Natasha you and Pauline were able to help me and things |
| 29:26 | just turned around so quickly after that so yeah I think if anyone else is in |
| 29:30 | that situation if you are kind of in a bit more of a niche profession not that |
| 29:34 | I think product management is super niche but definitely compared to other |
| 29:38 | roles like project management and business analyst there are so many more |
| 29:42 | roles available for them but I would say first like if you're not getting much |
| 29:46 | success with applications just look at your approach see if there's a |
| 29:50 | possibility that maybe you're not doing something 100% which for most people I |
| 29:55 | think is a very big possibility because it's not something that you really learn |
| 30:00 | uh how to apply for jobs and how to interviews and all of that which is why |
| 30:04 | we have people like you Natasha and your sister to help out yeah it's so true and |
| 30:10 | I think it should be a subject at school or or somewhere just how to interview |
| 30:16 | how to write a resume and not a generic resume i've had people that have said |
| 30:20 | "Oh no I was taught how to do it in uni." At uni they apparently they've |
| 30:25 | started to teach kids how to do it or young adults I should say than kids to |
| 30:29 | me but young adults and um like no but that's not right either because it's so |
| 30:36 | generic and that's fair whoever's teaching them has to be more generic |
| 30:41 | because it's they're trying to teach a whole variety of industries and |
| 30:45 | different people but I feel that if there was a subject that someone could |
| 30:49 | take that was how to read a job ad and then how to tailor your resume and cover |
| 30:54 | letter for that job ad and to research the company how to update your LinkedIn |
| 30:59 | how to interview yes this is what we do this is what we coach our clients but I |
| 31:04 | find that it's so not fair for high school kids that are trying to get a job |
| 31:11 | even during high school out of high school that you know maybe they don't |
| 31:14 | want to go to uni and they just don't know how to do it and even adults adults |
| 31:20 | don't know and that's why we're around but you're right it's |
| 31:25 | usually somewhere along the line along your application |
| 31:29 | process you're not hitting the mark and I love that when we do help people with |
| 31:35 | that they realize oh it's not me and their confidence just goes up because |
| 31:40 | they realize oh I'm just I'm not presenting myself well enough or I am |
| 31:45 | downplaying my skills because they either they feel that oh I don't want to |
| 31:50 | seem like I've got a huge ego no it's not ego it's a fact this is what you're |
| 31:56 | capable of these are your achievements you should be proud of them and you |
| 31:59 | should put them out there so definitely I completely agree with you Leah it's |
| 32:04 | sometimes it's the process not that you're not capable yeah and the thing is |
| 32:09 | I think there's a really easy reality to accept especially if you've been |
| 32:13 | applying for roles for months and you're not even getting like the courtesy of a |
| 32:18 | rejection email it's just dead silence which you know unfortunately does happen |
| 32:22 | quite often but it's deafening isn't it it is and when you're already like not |
| 32:27 | in an amazing place having all of these rejections or almost lack thereof but I |
| 32:32 | guess just absolutely no movement um you automatically sort of think oh like |
| 32:38 | maybe I'm applying for roles that are potentially too advanced for me or maybe |
| 32:42 | that like maybe I'm not that good but yeah to your point like the thing is |
| 32:47 | like if you actually are replying properly and then you're still not |
| 32:50 | seeing results and that's a different story but I think that for a lot of |
| 32:53 | people like I didn't even know how to properly format my CV with keywords like |
| 32:58 | little things like that and it was just that switch and it was great to see |
| 33:02 | because yeah before that just there was absolutely nothing so but afterwards |
| 33:08 | like it was such a huge improvement i'm really glad to hear that and we're |
| 33:11 | thrilled that we were able to help you in that way and support you through that |
| 33:17 | process as well and I mean we we do the same care with all our clients cuz your |
| 33:22 | career is part of your life so it's very serious like you said before like it's |
| 33:27 | it's important and it's a huge thing and that's why you were I guess stubborn um |
| 33:33 | or committed to staying in the field of the product management because this you |
| 33:40 | see long term you see longevity in it and you're passionate about it and |
| 33:44 | you're passionate about the whole process so having little things along |
| 33:47 | the way to support you and help you in little changes definitely make a huge |
| 33:51 | impact and seeing seeing those changes improve mental health straight away |
| 33:58 | almost you do always have that little voice at the back of your head when |
| 34:02 | something goes wrong but looking at the big picture where things are going right |
| 34:06 | and things are going well and you can see the differences and you can see the |
| 34:10 | changes i feel that that helps a lot of people yeah definitely so I'd like to |
| 34:16 | ask a final question what advice would you give your 18-year-old self i think |
| 34:22 | the main thing would be to I would recommend not |
| 34:27 | chasing I guess like money if that makes sense because I think it's very easy |
| 34:32 | when you do enter corporate and I've seen this a lot and I actually did this |
| 34:36 | myself at a point where I would choose roles because it seemed like I had a |
| 34:40 | really great salary and at the end of the day though it's not like yes |
| 34:44 | obviously we work so that we can get a salary um but you also need to make sure |
| 34:49 | that firstly the role is for it's relying on skills that you have or it |
| 34:53 | gives you the opportunities for growth um it is something that you would enjoy |
| 34:57 | doing as well uh because I have been in roles in the past where I was getting |
| 35:02 | compensated amazingly and that was great but when the culture when the role |
| 35:07 | itself wasn't really something that I actually wanted to do longterm all the |
| 35:11 | money in the world at least for me didn't justify staying in that position |
| 35:16 | so um that would be the first thing I would say but secondly would just be to |
| 35:19 | be curious it's like I think learning and speaking to different people doing |
| 35:24 | research um even like within your own role doing as much personal not personal |
| 35:29 | development professional development as you can um like LinkedIn for example has |
| 35:34 | a lot of micro courses or even getting more formal accredititations just being |
| 35:37 | curious about uh how you can learn more about your role the industry that you're |
| 35:41 | in uh really does go a long way as well so I would definitely tell my younger |
| 35:46 | self to do that even more even though I feel like I was already doing it more |
| 35:49 | than the average 18-year-old i know i was just about to say I feel like you're |
| 35:54 | the only 18-year-old that would actually listen to that advice and actually do it |
| 36:00 | but it's great advice yeah but I think that would be the main things and um I |
| 36:04 | think even from like a professional networking front I did notice that and |
| 36:09 | this was even when I was at the cadet ship quite a few other people my age |
| 36:13 | were too hesitant to actually reach out to people who were even slightly more |
| 36:18 | senior than them or people for example from different companies because they |
| 36:22 | just I think didn't know how to kind of interact cuz we were fresh from high |
| 36:26 | school so it's a completely new space but I think the other thing I would say |
| 36:30 | would be to definitely be open to just reaching out to people asking for career |
| 36:35 | advice even asking for people to be mentors uh depending on what their |
| 36:39 | capacity is but I did that to a degree and it really just went a long way in |
| 36:44 | like improving not improving but accelerating my career growth it was |
| 36:48 | because so many people are actually happy to help out people who are younger |
| 36:51 | who are keen to learn as well so that would be the other thing I would say as |
| 36:55 | well yeah absolutely spot on that's great thank you no worries thank you |
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